assumption: “Israel” exists less than a century. It emerged by dictate under arguably unprecedented political compromise. Some palestinians argue they drew the short end of the stick of the emergence of the state of Israel, and that’s an understatement probably. Israeli don’t have much of an alternative however, especially at this stage. They will not like ever pack up and leave so the state of Israel is an established historical fact. But what is now fairness? Is what is happening fair? Is there reconciliation possible or are we so far beyond reconciliation that only genocidal attrition or ethnic cleansing can solve anything? And if so what precedent does this set for international law? If interational law lets this happen uninterrupted (or if some states are implicit by supporting Israel by some 30 billion US dollar. That implies that every US taxpayer personally donates (?) some 100 dollar to a political entity that might be guilty of ethnic cleaning (?). Bold claim or utter nonsense? You decide – in Red Versus Blue !
Note that this is an extremely inflammatory topic and will be watching everything very closely. Several people will be recording precise event notecards in case anything untowards happens. There might even be Linden in disguise in the audience. 🙂
ground rules: http://khanneasuntzu.com/2010/09/04/red-versus-blue/
Invitation: The position of the Red side has been postulated rather firmly. I fear that today not many people would argue ‘red’ arguments. However these are arguments and ideas that do exist in the ‘red’ camp. I’d love see people have a look at these arguments from a red debating position for the purposes of seeing where it takes us. Also, I’d love people to write CONCLUSIONS of the debate to appear in this blog as comments.
DATE: Sunday. 9:30, AM/SLT — 17:30, PM/GMT — 18:30 PM/CET
The middle east has because of historical accident always been a place of murder, bloodshed, fuedal warfare and religious hysteria. It can not get any worse. The constant state of being in the middle east is genocide and tyranny. This changed after WW2 when the jewish people were rightfully given back -rightfully- their land. Ever since Israel has been a breaking point for millenniums of despots and tyrants and superstition and xenophobia. It is only natural that half the middle east, which is till stuck in the middle ages, under the spell of a tribal Death Deity (in plain words – Allah) resists Israel. Israel is a thorn in the side of the Middle East. It portrays the difference between barbarism and civilization.
In essence Israel fights a battle against barbarism. Make no assumptions – Israel would no kill its neighbors – but nearly all its neighbors would without a shadow of a death kill every single Jew, to the last man, woman and child. It is not the people of Israel who do ethnic cleansing – it is evryone around them – Syrians, Palestians, Egyptians, Lybians, Iranians, Iraqi, Saudi, Turks. They would all shove Israel off the map and the people of Israel into the Mediterranean if they had half a chance. This is a battle for survival. Right now Saudi openly pay the widows if suicide bombers that succeeded in killing Israeli a stipend based on how many Israeli the suicide bomber killed. Kill more innocent lives with terrorism, and your widow gets more. This is what Israel faces. In this light it is only natural that Israel must do whatever it can to defend itself, it considering the fact it does so with utmost restraint. Those who criticize Israel would almost certainly not have the same restraint when placed in the same situation.
There is effectively no solution. The only solution is a consistent perpetuation of the current one – Israel takes no quarter, not an inch and it will move steadily forward until it has has either
expanded consolidated its territory in such a way that it has defense hegemony and can far more casually deny attempts at terrorism or infiltration. This will probably mean that in the long run there is no future for many Palestinians in the place where they now live. But there is a lot of space in Saudi Arabia right? So let them go there.
“Face it – even though Palestinians are part of a factor that has in the west not much of a ‘cuddle factor’, they are subject to ethnic cleansing. If native New-Zealanders started doing in 1950 to white skinned New-Zealanders what Israeli are doing to Palestinians then by now the international community would probably have exterminated the Maori by now. I mean, half the world would have come to the rescue of the white New-Zealanders and run the Maori into the sea and butchered them with machine guns. The international attitudes towards Palestinians are racist. There is a law for white Israeli and there is a law for dark Israeli. The only reason the international community has to this day not acted to condemn the Israeli is the absurd hold of Israeli influence over US politics. If this were not the case we should long have started fair and transparent war crime tribunals and should have isolated Israel – and sought sanctions that had a bite. Israel must be made to talk with it’s neighbors, and Israel must immediately surrender it’s occupied (stolen) territories. Israel must work with the Palestinians to implement and actively facilitate a Palestinian state. And Israel must be made to pay for repairs for years of active repression.
What is worse, most Israeli have a rather tenuous claim on rights over being ‘Israeli’. They are by and large Russian immigrants. Many who call themselves Israeli are not ‘Jewish’ at all. They are just migrants who conspired under the pretext of some kind of ‘zionese’ conspiracy to grab some conveniently available plot of land and steal it from some bunch of vulnerable, conveniently exposed people. Most settlers in the state of Israel were just opportunists were just fed up by wars in Russia and Europe and wanted a place for themselves and didn’t give a damn about some Arabs standing in the way. This makes the formation of Israel in itself a criminal precedent in itself.