[12:00:50] Bryce Galbraith: Hi Khannea!
[12:01:11] Khannea Suntzu: Heya
[12:01:11] Bryce Galbraith: Hi Bogdan
[12:01:18] Bogdan Ixtab: hi
[12:01:22] Khannea Suntzu: Lets see how this goes 😛
[12:01:43] Bryce Galbraith: This is pretty cool 🙂
[12:02:08] Khannea Suntzu: Yah its Ivy’s place
[12:02:16] Bogdan Ixtab: I like the sky
[12:02:27] Bryce Galbraith: ah, yes…
[12:03:32] Bryce Galbraith: sorry… I should have sent out a notice that I wasn’t having my discussion group meeting this week.
[12:03:47] Bryce Galbraith: I started doing the every-two-week thing to give myself a bit more bandwidth…
[12:04:07] Khannea Suntzu: I am just gettig back intoSL, don’t look at me 🙂
[12:04:08] Bryce Galbraith: it’s generally working out okay except that it introduces a bit of confusion each weekend 🙂
[12:04:21] Bryce Galbraith: It’s good seeing you again Khannea 🙂
[12:04:48] Bryce Galbraith: Hi Ivy!
[12:04:53] Ivy Sunkiller: hoy hoy
[12:05:04] Toy (aeni.silvercloud): hello 🙂
[12:05:09] Bryce Galbraith: Hi Aeni 🙂
[12:06:03] Metafire Horsley: whinnys!
[12:06:05] Bryce Galbraith: Hi Meta!
[12:06:07] Bryce Galbraith: Hi Seren 🙂
[12:06:33] Seren (serendipity.seraph): greetings all!
[12:06:41] Khannea Suntzu: 🙂
[12:06:44] Ivy Sunkiller: can rezz some extra chairs if we run short 🙂
[12:06:46] Toy (aeni.silvercloud) waves!
[12:07:15] Ivy Sunkiller: hello Arch
[12:07:59] Khannea Suntzu: Ok lets start
[12:08:00] Arch (archmage.atlantis): Hello Ivy (scurries to sofa pillow)
[12:08:04] Bryce Galbraith: Hi Arch
[12:08:20] Khannea Suntzu: The idea is rather loose
[12:08:21] Arch (archmage.atlantis): One pill…. I know the drill
[12:08:29] Khannea Suntzu: This is a new sequence of discussions, and seriously I have no formula, no masterplan and no ingenuous leitmotiff.
[12:08:45] Khannea Suntzu: For starters some personal stuff
[12:08:45] Seren (serendipity.seraph): red or blue pill? 🙂
[12:08:51] Ivy Sunkiller: which might be a good change for a start 🙂
[12:08:56] Khannea Suntzu: Only thig I need to say is that since October I went to Milan, was fucked over by this budget air company, and I hadf to wait 8 hours at schiphol – then I met Kim in Milan after wandering around a few hours due to really awful directions and a really obscure Hotel – then Kim .. well… she wandered into the arms of someone there and while I encouraged it, it was a bit stressful, and the day after I was .. perturbed to say the least. Then I met two people who will have an impact on me for the rest of my life, Dan and Alison, in one of the most beautiful places of Italy, Bergamo, after a 2 hour boat ride over the lake. There Kim and me talked and then Monday we flew back and all the drama I vomited.
[12:09:28] Khannea Suntzu: The trip to Milan, and the Transvisioh 2010 conference was … amazing
[12:09:37] Khannea Suntzu: Then I spent 3 months with Kim, which had its ups and downs.. and the question was whether or not Kim would stay, use the immigration track to stay in the Netherlands, or use some other means, or maybe visit a prologed time in the US and get a MVV permanent stay for Europe while staying in the US – but after a lot more Drama and interpersonally assymmetrical dynamics Kim was refused visa entry into the US, twice, and on the date of departure while she did fly back to the US she had decided in the last few days before departure she’d rather face US immigrations head on the horns than face immigration in the EU with my help (and total lack of any income) and upon arrival in DC she filed for Asulum.
[12:10:40] Khannea Suntzu: The generosity of Dan and Alison towards Kim is amazing. They invests thousands and thousands of dollars in her
[12:10:52] Arch (archmage.atlantis): Asylum is difficult to get
[12:10:59] Khannea Suntzu: But before she got in, she had a painful thing
[12:11:04] Khannea Suntzu: The kind people pof the US kept her locked in an Isolation ward in a Virginia hick prison for nearly 4 weeks. After getting out Kim was pleased to see me, but it was clear we didn’t have anyhing resembling a close intimate relationship.
[12:11:06] Arch (archmage.atlantis): Will the 2 of you marry?
[12:11:26] Khannea Suntzu: She got out with the thanks of one of the best lawyers in the US on gay immigration rights
[12:11:27] Arch (archmage.atlantis): Ah
[12:11:50] Khannea Suntzu: Money talks in the US, she will have US citizinship iun a couple of months
[12:12:00] Khannea Suntzu: My hosts however were a most spectacular influence on me – Alison by her perceptive look at reality and experience, Dn by his breathtaking lifelong exprerience and spiritual depth. They were so generous it keeps dazzlig me. No one has ever been this generous to me, and they changed everything for me. I am forever endebted to them and what they stand for and my adventures in the US have left me a new person, far more than I ever hoped I’d ever be.
[12:12:28] Bryce Galbraith: Wow, sounds like the last few months have been a bit of a roller coaster Khannea!
[12:12:48] Khannea Suntzu: My visit to the US, my watching the news, my talks with *many* people there, my conclusions are now firner than ever,
[12:12:56] Khannea Suntzu: One thing is sure for me, and that is the center of these events here – our global societies, economic systems, institutions are all outdated and not functioning even remotely to what is required.
[12:12:57] Seren (serendipity.seraph): after 4 weeks in detention it is pretty hard to be intimate in the best of circumstances. bit of a hard reset.
[12:13:04] Khannea Suntzu: Yes
[12:13:05] Arch (archmage.atlantis): Sounds like there has been a transformative experience for you, sister K
[12:13:14] Khannea Suntzu: Oh for sure
[12:13:20] Khannea Suntzu: I am very different now
[12:13:30] Bryce Galbraith: Hi tR 🙂
[12:13:33] Bryce Galbraith: *TR
[12:13:35] Seren (serendipity.seraph): nice on it working out on citizenship. yay!
[12:13:37] Ivy Sunkiller: 2 people per coach Meta 🙂
[12:13:39] TR Amat: Hi
[12:13:53] Khannea Suntzu: You may look at some of the progress I am making at Khanneasuntzu.com
[12:14:04] Khannea Suntzu: But lets focus on the topic.
[12:14:13] Seren (serendipity.seraph): I am very very happy for you, Khannea
[12:14:44] Khannea Suntzu: The world is suffering from unsustainable conplexity, unsustainable resource depletion, unsustainable disequilibrium ( I wot call itdisparity for you seren)
[12:15:21] Seren (serendipity.seraph): *smiles, waves hand*
[12:15:25] Khannea Suntzu: The world is becoming more fragile EVEN if technology wouldn’t be acceledrating rather fast, and largely in a subtle stealth mode
[12:15:47] Khannea Suntzu: The combination of gross incompetence, everywhere
[12:15:51] Khannea Suntzu: Resource depletion
[12:15:59] Khannea Suntzu: Pure corruption
[12:16:03] Khannea Suntzu: Entitlements
[12:16:17] Khannea Suntzu: And worst of all, deverely destabilizing technologies
[12:16:25] Seren (serendipity.seraph): the planetary egg cracks open. will what is next be born whole or a monstrosity that last only a microsecond?
[12:16:30] Khannea Suntzu: will create a witches brew that will affects our lives
[12:16:39] Khannea Suntzu: There are several ways of responding to this
[12:16:48] Khannea Suntzu: 1. apathy and *shrug*
[12:17:03] Khannea Suntzu: 2. depression, and other forms of navelstaring
[12:17:10] Khannea Suntzu: 3. enjoy it while it lasts
[12:17:34] Khannea Suntzu: 4. try and join the establishment, lobby, become activist
[12:17:51] Khannea Suntzu: 5. ptrepare, inside the system or outside the system (survivalism)
[12:18:02] Khannea Suntzu: But finally there is another route
[12:18:08] Arch (archmage.atlantis): Wait
[12:18:16] Khannea Suntzu: and that route would be espoused by a set of young…
[12:18:17] Khannea Suntzu: wait?
[12:18:25] Khannea Suntzu: Whats up, arch?
[12:18:53] Arch (archmage.atlantis): K please say try to Rhi for summarizing 5000 yrs of philosophy
[12:18:59] Arch (archmage.atlantis): That’s it
[12:18:59] Metafire Horsley: Where is the Kurzweil is right and we will all end up in Post-Singularity Utopia? – route?
[12:19:08] Arch (archmage.atlantis): Please proceed
[12:19:22] Bogdan Ixtab: so, what is the 6-th way?
[12:19:39] Khannea Suntzu: I will get to Rays circus in a second
[12:19:51] Khannea Suntzu: The sixth way is this
[12:20:42] ilounge Markus is Online
[12:20:43] Khannea Suntzu: I have referred to this as an embryonic “panthern modern” movenent – outsiders, others, anarchists, survivors, opportuinists
[12:20:47] Khannea Suntzu: http://transhumanseparatist.com/
[12:20:59] Khannea Suntzu: Its a small, fringe statement, not even a movenent reall
[12:20:59] Ivy Sunkiller: yay!
[12:21:17] Khannea Suntzu: But it has the whole establishment of H+ in a paranoid uproar
[12:21:35] Seren (serendipity.seraph): Sigh. Transhuman Separatist was stillborn
[12:21:41] Metafire Horsley: The orthers are cool. Especially those from Sergej Lukianenko’s novels 🙂
[12:21:43] Khannea Suntzu: I know it from insiders inside the SU that they are angry about these seperatist sentiments
[12:21:53] Khannea Suntzu: I agree seren, it was not mucvh so far
[12:22:07] Seren (serendipity.seraph): it was misplayed and largely not in a helpful way imho
[12:22:09] Khannea Suntzu: But its still evolving, and even if its bunk, the concept is a valid niche
[12:22:16] TR Amat: It is the nature of factions to factionate, unfortunately.
[12:22:47] Khannea Suntzu: Lets just say the *current* TranSep is just a dead duck, there will be an equivalent TranSep very soon, in some other form, and it WILL evolkve
[12:22:48] Seren (serendipity.seraph): so what are its core parts, this 6th way?
[12:24:02] Khannea Suntzu: The basic premise is – we leave. We disaffect, we disassociate from the world. We become scavengers, surviovors. Nihilism. Help each other, as clans, but ignore etsablished morals and powerstructures. Not GO against the machine, but dodge it
[12:24:21] Khannea Suntzu: Use new technologies, much in the spirit of Wikileaks, or Pirate Bauy
[12:24:24] Seren (serendipity.seraph): how does one leave the world while stuck in the world?
[12:24:27] Khannea Suntzu: Dare I say ANON
[12:24:33] TR Amat: Meta subversives?
[12:24:48] Khannea Suntzu: Well seren, did you know that the revolution in Tunesia was started by Pirate Bay activists?
[12:25:02] Khannea Suntzu: Talk about an intereston non-islamoc catalust
[12:25:07] Seren (serendipity.seraph): so? and it seems doubtful..
[12:25:39] Khannea Suntzu: A pal of nine, Slim is a pirate bay guy, he is now a member of parliament after the revolutions in Tunesia
[12:25:42] Khannea Suntzu: He is a rapper
[12:25:46] Khannea Suntzu: Smart guy
[12:26:02] Khannea Suntzu: He is Pirate Bay, I believe moderately Wikileaks and pro Zeitgeist
[12:26:30] Khannea Suntzu: Another word not taken very serious by some people at the Singularity University
[12:26:37] Seren (serendipity.seraph): what I think is that the mother of all cataclysms is coming and is unstoppable. Billions will likely die. All we can do is gather up those and those ideals and things and knowledge we wish to continue and find ways to ensure their continuance as best we can.
[12:26:49] Khannea Suntzu: And there we end up with Ray Kurzweil
[12:27:00] Khannea Suntzu: I here indite Ray on being a sell-out
[12:27:46] Khannea Suntzu: I accuse Ray Kurzweil of being a corporate sell out, who glosses over the suffering of billions of miserable, outcompeted, outclassed, poor people
[12:28:04] Khannea Suntzu: He gives soothing words, but these soothing words sound hollow
[12:28:16] Khannea Suntzu: The world is working for a very small selection of people
[12:28:18] Seren (serendipity.seraph): that is harsh and very ideologically biased in questionable ways
[12:28:31] Metafire Horsley: That may very well be, but most of his predictions might be true regardless
[12:28:45] Seren (serendipity.seraph): actually it is working to a larger degree for massively more people than at any point in history
[12:28:58] Seren (serendipity.seraph): not good enough by any means and not sustainable though
[12:28:59] Khannea Suntzu: I do not believe Ray
[12:29:08] TR Amat: Try and put together and distribute some tools to protect knowledge from corruption or destruction?
[12:29:17] Bogdan Ixtab: this is the problem, if he is right or not
[12:29:38] Khannea Suntzu: I think he is selling a nice cute story, that makes corporate shareholders happy, and gets him invited to seminars, while for the forseeable future people die in gutters and nobody gives a flying shit
[12:29:39] Arch (archmage.atlantis): I agree with Seren’s conclusion of the present…….I hope for a new future
[12:29:56] Seren (serendipity.seraph): I don’t think he is in the least trying to make corporations happy
[12:29:57] Khannea Suntzu: Maybe things will eventually get better
[12:30:03] Khannea Suntzu: Lets say they do in 2046
[12:30:04] Bogdan Ixtab: it’s not like we have a miracle solution now
[12:30:06] Anabella Spark is Online
[12:30:07] Khannea Suntzu: However
[12:30:15] Khannea Suntzu: 2011 – 2046 … that is the same amiount of years as between 1911 and 1946, right?
[12:30:48] TR Amat: Based on what I’ve seen, I suspect you are likely in more trouble from bumbling incompetence, that any conspiracy. Trouble is, conspiracies are more ‘sexy’ and often attractive, than incompetence. 🙂
[12:30:56] Khannea Suntzu: you can fit two world wars, concentration camps and two annihilated US cities, and two major economic crashes.
[12:31:01] Arch (archmage.atlantis): 1911 and 1946……my parents years…….
[12:31:31] Khannea Suntzu: If ray is right fine.
[12:31:36] Seren (serendipity.seraph): I do not presume that merely being outcast or marginal makes one automatically worthwhile or that it is automatically someone else’s fault for that matter.
[12:31:57] Khannea Suntzu: But he won’t be for a while, and in those years ahead a lot of people may face nightmares beyond all descriptions
[12:32:18] Khannea Suntzu: Nice charming empathic sentiment Serendipity
[12:32:33] Seren (serendipity.seraph): the economy worldwide will implode in this decade. that is the linchpin of the cataclysm
[12:32:43] Metafire Horsley: You mean human people. Nonhuman people already live in nightmares beyong all descriptions.
[12:32:52] Khannea Suntzu: Thats why there is a market for TranSep. To STEAL from people who have, using whatever means technology can give them. Hack and crash the system, Rot it fr4om the inside.
[12:32:52] Seren (serendipity.seraph): empathy has zip to do with it. what I said is quite accurate
[12:32:53] Arch (archmage.atlantis): K, do you truly believe the nightmares will be worse than those already faced?
[12:32:58] TR Amat: “It is the business of the future to be dangerous” – Hawkwind 🙂
[12:33:32] Khannea Suntzu: Nanotechnology? Mass unemployment? Pension Crisis? Robotic Unemplopyability?
[12:33:48] Arch (archmage.atlantis): Slavery, Rape, Torture
[12:33:49] Khannea Suntzu: Peak Oil? Environnental Catastrophes>
[12:34:00] Katrine Fray is Offline
[12:34:05] Khannea Suntzu: New Warfare? New Terrorisn?
[12:34:05] Seren (serendipity.seraph): and the majority of human beings are not beings I particularly like or have any but genetic kniship with. trying to claim I “should” is empty and meaningless.
[12:34:08] Bogdan Ixtab: I don’t think this can be solved from a fringe position
[12:34:10] Khannea Suntzu: Dollar Collapse?
[12:34:19] Bogdan Ixtab: it needs to go mainstream
[12:34:21] Khannea Suntzu: I am not saying *solve*
[12:34:37] Seren (serendipity.seraph): not just the dollar but that starts the dominos falling
[12:34:49] TR Amat: Anarchism will become really popular again? The bomb throwing nihilist will be a untra-technologist?
[12:35:07] Seren (serendipity.seraph): sigh. anarchism has nothing to do with throwing bombs
[12:35:15] Bogdan Ixtab: dollar collapse is a major event, but far from end of the world.
[12:35:23] Arch (archmage.atlantis): Interesting, TR……..my impulse was to type yes
[12:35:24] Khannea Suntzu: How about what if an entity such AS Transep starts working in international outside territorial waters and creates its own state? Along the lines of Shimizu floating city structures?
[12:35:27] TR Amat: Look at the press of the late 19th, early 20thC.
[12:36:00] Seren (serendipity.seraph): reserve currency, all governments move their currency in relation. all are weakened therby and totatlly interdependent. world wide financial collapse and soon.
[12:36:11] TR Amat: Is the media (Fox etc) looking for the next group to demonise?
[12:36:19] Bogdan Ixtab: that would be interesting idea, artificial islands, etc, i like that idea
[12:36:20] Khannea Suntzu: Interesting. What if collectives of such groups start prducing products *conpletely* ignorig intellectual property?
[12:36:20] Metafire Horsley: whinnys!
[12:36:32] Khannea Suntzu: Heya Rhi
[12:36:38] Arch (archmage.atlantis): Rhi, hidey ho
[12:36:42] Seren (serendipity.seraph): seems to me that all parties, left, right and other are big into demonization and mud slinging.
[12:36:47] Metafire Horsley: You can read about what happens then in Greg Egan’s novel “Distress”
[12:37:16] Ivy Sunkiller: forgive me the oversight, the pole is rezzed Rhi 🙂
[12:37:29] Khannea Suntzu: Critical!
[12:37:30] Seren (serendipity.seraph): fine. what do you mean by completely ignoring? how do creators (relatively rare) get compensated?
[12:37:54] Seren (serendipity.seraph): how is which things they use their talents on selected?
[12:37:58] Khannea Suntzu smiles at the acidic cynicism of seren
[12:38:00] Ivy Sunkiller: well, first came first served 🙂
[12:38:04] Bryce Galbraith: lol Arch 🙂
[12:38:13] Bogdan Ixtab: 🙂
[12:38:19] Seren (serendipity.seraph): I am not cynical. merely realistic and honest.
[12:38:36] Seren (serendipity.seraph): *grins*
[12:38:56] Metafire Horsley: I’ll just invent a reputation economy. Problem solved. Go on 😛
[12:39:11] TR Amat wonders at SL implementations of the term pole-waxed. 🙂
[12:39:23] Seren (serendipity.seraph): an underground ecoonmy with its own currency could save a lot that will otherwise fall.
[12:39:45] Khannea Suntzu: Ivy what arguments do you have about busy-bodies who want to intriduce THEIR new economic system on a few unwilling billions?
[12:40:13] Seren (serendipity.seraph): read the TVP handbook for activists
[12:40:19] Seren (serendipity.seraph): TVM I mean
[12:40:23] Ivy Sunkiller: kill em
[12:40:24] Ivy Sunkiller: :p
[12:40:40] Khannea Suntzu: I rest my case Meta
[12:40:54] Seren (serendipity.seraph): mind circles Rhi circling the pole..
[12:40:58] TR Amat: The abolition of the written personal cheque, which the UK has held on to longer than most, is maybe an interesting sign?
[12:42:20] TR Amat: Given a secure peer-to-peer system, anyone could establish their own currency. I understand some have.
[12:42:33] Ivy Sunkiller: hello ari, need chair?
[12:42:40] Arisia Vita: pls
[12:42:41] Arch (archmage.atlantis): Ari, you can only be here if you speak out loud to the group.
[12:42:43] Khannea Suntzu: Seren, can you tell us about the ideas of this republican senator that does not want tgo extend the US debt ceiling and what might happen if that actually happened.
[12:42:43] Arisia Vita: or I can stand
[12:42:54] Bogdan Ixtab: Currency value is given by its acceptance in exchange for goods/services
[12:42:59] Arisia Vita: oh, then I’ll leave Arch
[12:42:59] Bogdan Ixtab: that’s all there is
[12:43:18] Arch (archmage.atlantis): Chicken
[12:43:25] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): There are underground economies that exist currently, using gold, e-gold and barter.
[12:43:27] Ivy Sunkiller: not quite fitting but there you go 🙂
[12:43:32] TR Amat: There are often trusted third parties, and (mutually agreed) arbitrators.
[12:43:46] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): TR that’s how e-gold works
[12:43:52] Khannea Suntzu smiles
[12:44:01] Khannea Suntzu: I have bad news for all you
[12:44:13] Bogdan Ixtab: even gold would be without any value if other people were not ready to accept it as an exchange medium
[12:44:21] Khannea Suntzu: This summer the US will default on its debts and the dollar will crash, and the US wikll beforced
[12:44:31] Khannea Suntzu: To pay of its debts by printing dollars
[12:44:32] Bogdan Ixtab: for example in a postapocalyptic world, I can imagine food would be more valuable then gold
[12:44:33] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Bogdan, true, but it has held the same value for over 6000 years.
[12:44:40] Khannea Suntzu: It will be massive inflation
[12:45:00] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): WB Seren
[12:45:14] Arch (archmage.atlantis) whispers: See, K…….the “rest of the world”
[12:45:34] TR Amat: Would space-mined gold trash the gold standard?
[12:45:35] Arch (archmage.atlantis): Wlll be more affected
[12:45:52] Khannea Suntzu: And in effect it will be a system where the affluence of the super ruic will very quickly evaporate, and trickle down through deflation as the US government will keep giving increasingly inflated money to pensioners, welfare recipients, soldiers, civil srvants, etc etc,
[12:46:03] Arch (archmage.atlantis): gold is simply an element on the periodic table
[12:46:10] Khannea Suntzu: This year the US will crash as an economioc entity
[12:46:11] Arch (archmage.atlantis): It was once rare
[12:46:12] Bogdan Ixtab: khannea, you say US will default on its debts?
[12:46:16] Khannea Suntzu: Yep
[12:46:30] Seren (serendipity.seraph): space mining will not happen for at least two decades short a tech miracle
[12:46:37] Khannea Suntzu: I have talked to someone in the US who should know and I am dead certain
[12:46:40] Bogdan Ixtab: US does not need to default, it can just print the money to pay its creditors
[12:46:40] Seren (serendipity.seraph): wish it was not so but there it is
[12:46:49] Khannea Suntzu: Someone VERY close to the pentagon and white house
[12:46:55] Arch (archmage.atlantis): I agree with K, btw……I just do not agree with the outcome
[12:47:09] Khannea Suntzu: Oh there are several scenarios
[12:47:11] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Oh, the “source very close to the Pentagon and the White House.”
[12:47:17] Bogdan Ixtab: stealthy default by inflation..
[12:47:22] Seren (serendipity.seraph): printing money DOES NOT WORK. Ask Zimbabwe and anywhere else that tried it
[12:47:29] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I have heard that there are some signs that some debt will be delinquent, but not a default
[12:47:31] TR Amat: So, is this China and oil money owning most of the US scenario?
[12:47:36] Arch (archmage.atlantis): Fortune tellers in uniform
[12:47:37] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): But I agree that printing money is not the answer.
[12:47:39] Arch (archmage.atlantis): smile
[12:48:01] Seren (serendipity.seraph): creditors will not accept worthless currency. only that it is the reserve currency has protected it this long. many countries are working to end that
[12:48:04] Khannea Suntzu: Seren, they can deflate the US debts into oblivion. Seren, they can deflate the bizarre wealth disparity held by rich people into irrelevance.
[12:48:25] Seren (serendipity.seraph): ùno they cannot without bankrupting themselves and all creditors.
[12:48:52] Arch (archmage.atlantis): Who is this mysterious “they”
[12:49:09] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Why the Illuminaie, Arch; you know that
[12:49:15] Seren (serendipity.seraph): if you divided all the mone equally it would make things even worse. The wealthy are not wealthy enough to pay more than a small drop of the total debt
[12:49:38] TR Amat: Who will end up owning what when the dust settles?
[12:49:43] Arch (archmage.atlantis): Pogo once said “I have seen the enemy, and he is us”
[12:50:06] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, we’ll solve the porblem the way the G-20 did for Brazil; they’ll just lend us more money to pay off the debt that we already owe…
[12:50:24] Seren (serendipity.seraph): *giggles*
[12:50:24] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): I knew someone who did that; keep on rolling over his debts until he was dead.
[12:50:37] TR Amat: Enough money to manage the interest payments?
[12:50:55] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): TR right; that’s how it works with 3rd world debt
[12:51:09] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Of course, it means the IMF, the World Banks, and so forth will own the US
[12:51:22] TR Amat: So, will the US end up with 3rd World type debts?
[12:51:23] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): But since “they” say they already do…
[12:51:34] Bogdan Ixtab: US case is special as it has the world reserve currency, and the US gov has USD denominated debts
[12:51:46] Seren (serendipity.seraph): not for long. interest is being kept artificially low. loaning to the US is like burning money. You get back less than you loaned much less any but negative interest especially considering inflation.
[12:51:46] Bogdan Ixtab: when US prints, inflation is global
[12:51:48] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone) is Online
[12:52:04] Bogdan Ixtab: it doesn’t affect just USA, it affects all of us
[12:52:08] Arch (archmage.atlantis): I do not think there is a 3rd world any longer….nor a first world ( second world must have been a middle child)
[12:52:13] Bogdan Ixtab: that’s why China is so pissed off
[12:52:16] TR Amat: What would it take to change what is the world reserve currency, then?
[12:52:24] Seren (serendipity.seraph): yes. every other country inflates also to keep currently on par with the “reserve” currency.
[12:52:39] Bogdan Ixtab: exactly, and this is called “currency war”
[12:52:47] Seren (serendipity.seraph): and what would the consequences be?
[12:52:52] Bogdan Ixtab: gold $5000
[12:52:55] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Seren, all the solutions we’ve had since the 30’s are short term ones. They knew, for instance, that social secruity would go backrupt when they created it butg figured the smarter,, wiser next generation would figure out a solution.
[12:52:56] Seren (serendipity.seraph): Agreement among the major economies
[12:52:57] Bogdan Ixtab: oil $400
[12:52:59] Bogdan Ixtab: etc
[12:53:17] Ivy Sunkiller: the consequences would be earning more money than you can carry, but not enough to rent a cab
[12:53:17] Seren (serendipity.seraph): already underpublicized (in US at least) meetings about such
[12:54:03] Seren (serendipity.seraph): so economic collapse is baked in as things stand. What can we do about it?
[12:54:11] TR Amat: The yuan will become on of the big currencies? In theory as well as fact?
[12:54:22] Ivy Sunkiller: buy gold Seren 🙂
[12:54:22] Arch (archmage.atlantis): Um, all the solutions humans have always had are short term……..just getting thorugh the next day…….there’s even a mantra for that.. “one day at a time”
[12:54:33] Seren (serendipity.seraph): yuan is also heavily inflated and the printing presses are running.
[12:55:13] TR Amat: I understand China considered devaluation (in 2010?), but were persuaded not to.
[12:55:22] Bogdan Ixtab: the only real solution is technological innovation; we have to produce more with less
[12:55:26] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Arch, ys, true. And to be fair, the planners in the 30’s thought that education would make for the smarter generation. So thank God our educational system is first rate and doing its job. Errrr.
[12:55:28] Seren (serendipity.seraph): buy gold, buy real assets, band together with others in intentional communities, get the hell out of dodge..
[12:56:04] Seren (serendipity.seraph): high tech communes anyone?
[12:56:27] Arch (archmage.atlantis): Tech requires maintenance
[12:56:30] Bogdan Ixtab: for example, why so many people commute?
[12:56:35] TR Amat: Algae-based solar food economies?
[12:56:45] Bogdan Ixtab: realize how much oil is consumed just with business related travel?
[12:56:47] Seren (serendipity.seraph): flycams bring watching a flagpole dance to a whole new level. 🙂
[12:56:50] Bogdan Ixtab: why not telecommute?
[12:57:11] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Seren, yes, maybe on webcam, for real, next time. lol
[12:57:16] Metafire Horsley: Why not telecommunicate? 🙂
[12:57:22] Bryce Galbraith: I’m afraid I need to head out… great discussion… and glad you’re back Khannea 🙂
[12:57:23] TR Amat: Businessmen want to smell the fear of their competitors. 🙂
[12:57:26] Seren (serendipity.seraph): of course so you have lots of techies in your commune
[12:57:35] Seren (serendipity.seraph): and the equipment needed
[12:57:49] Seren (serendipity.seraph): self sufficent wherever possible.
[12:57:49] Bogdan Ixtab: then invent how to transmit scent at a distance 🙂
[12:57:51] Bryce Galbraith: and very interesting place you have here too Ivy — very cool 🙂
[12:58:03] Metafire Horsley: Is there a proof of concept that high tech communes work at all?
[12:58:28] Arch (archmage.atlantis): Equipment that evovled on this planet……in the time that is a spec in the galactic ey
[12:58:39] TR Amat: Robo commuting is interesting – I’m just wating for the first tele-operated murder…
[12:58:57] Seren (serendipity.seraph): well, when the galaxy lends a hand a bit more obviously I will pay more attention
[12:59:10] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Meta, I believe there actually are some; but how long they will last–that’s another question
[12:59:23] TR Amat: High tec communes suffer from the usual commune problem – humans. 🙂
[12:59:32] Arch (archmage.atlantis): Waiting for an abusive Daddy really doen’t work
[12:59:51] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, hey, this was going to have a transhumanist speaker? Maybe the solution is get rid of the humans.
[13:00:17] Bogdan Ixtab: long term solution indeed, go post-human
[13:00:19] Arch (archmage.atlantis): And replace us with what, Rhi?
[13:00:23] Seren (serendipity.seraph): solution to what Rhi? I mean what is the sourcing of values beyond humans at this point?
[13:00:53] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Some equally flawed, cybernetic race, which will have to get replaced, by an equally flawed post-cybernetic race, which will have to be replaced…
[13:01:21] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Seren, it really wouldn’t be a solution; we would either have to make humans better or get help from a supernatural source.
[13:01:24] Arch (archmage.atlantis): Turtles all the way down
[13:01:31] Bogdan Ixtab: an evolutionary process
[13:01:36] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): The liberal and the Christian solutions, in other wordds. Only possibilities.
[13:01:50] Metafire Horsley: Just make the humans beter until they can solve their problems on their own
[13:01:54] Seren (serendipity.seraph): supernatural? no such thing. more advanced perhaps
[13:01:58] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): By liberal, I don’t mean to distinguish between classical and modern
[13:02:08] Metafire Horsley: Horses will help 🙂
[13:02:13] TR Amat: Provide people tools to build a transhumanist future? And, hope you can pick up the pieces from the failures…
[13:02:26] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Seren, yes, the Gene Roddenberry solution; we get help from more advanced races; a secular version of the supernaturalist solution.
[13:02:43] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): But what if we’re the most advanced race?
[13:02:48] Ivy Sunkiller: Jesus will save us!
[13:03:02] Seren (serendipity.seraph): I think we are on our own here. No calvary is coming.
[13:03:09] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Ivy, yes, Jesus or we will have to find a way to perfect ourselves.
[13:03:11] Arch (archmage.atlantis): More advanced races = God……
[13:03:23] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Seren, we have to assume that or we won’t take the right actions.
[13:03:29] Arch (archmage.atlantis): I want to figure it out for ourselves
[13:03:47] Ivy Sunkiller: we are definitely the most advanced race we know about
[13:03:49] Ivy Sunkiller: 🙂
[13:03:58] Seren (serendipity.seraph): or build AGIs that do..
[13:04:04] Bogdan Ixtab: and this is called “Fermi Paradox”
[13:04:11] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Accepting Christ into your heart might be the way to get a spiritual solution
[13:04:11] Metafire Horsley: “Through the storm fronts we will ever surely pass to stand as never-ending light!”
[13:04:20] Ivy Sunkiller: ah AGIs… Robot Jesus will save us! 😀
[13:04:23] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Yes, but I have a Rhia correlory to the Fermi Paradox
[13:04:27] Khannea Suntzu smiles
[13:04:29] Seren (serendipity.seraph): I think it is very very difficult for any evolved species to survive this stage in its history.
[13:04:33] Arch (archmage.atlantis): AGIs to me are a substitiue for God
[13:04:39] Arch (archmage.atlantis): To the idea
[13:04:46] Khannea Suntzu: Next week I hope Rachel Haywire will in fact join us
[13:04:55] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Ivy, His second coming could be an infusion into a computer. Never believed he’d be on a flying horse
[13:04:57] Arch (archmage.atlantis): let someone else figure it out
[13:05:03] Bogdan Ixtab: God is such a vague concept, everyone understands what suits him best
[13:05:25] Khannea Suntzu: Whatever she does, next week I will be looking at a favorite blogger and technologist and his publications, one I quoted a LOT in the last months
[13:05:29] Khannea Suntzu: Marshall Brain
[13:05:44] Ivy Sunkiller: Rhi: if an AGI got the idea to pretend to be Jesus, I guess it would find quite few followers 🙂
[13:05:45] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): God is vague, but Jesus is concrete, Bogdan
[13:05:52] Khannea Suntzu: He wrote some articles about unemployment caused by automation
[13:06:04] Khannea Suntzu: I would like to look at that next week
[13:06:11] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): But by Ferrmi Paradox did you mean that by the time a race could get to us, they’d have atomic power, and hence would blow themselves up?
[13:06:32] Metafire Horsley: Yeah, steel god and concrete jesus, the divine superhero duo 🙂
[13:06:41] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Because Ii think there is an alternative–they’d blow themselves up, or they would have learned to live in peace.
[13:06:48] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Meta, lmao
[13:06:49] Seren (serendipity.seraph): http://www.jesuspuzzle.humanists.net/home.htm Would not want to build much from such ‘concrete’
[13:06:55] Bogdan Ixtab: Fermi Paradox is the remarcable fact that we don’t see signs of advanced civilisations in the univers
[13:07:17] Seren (serendipity.seraph): or no signs we recognize
[13:07:18] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Yes, that’s what I thought. And my solution is that they would either blow themselves up or live in peace
[13:07:29] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): And it’s a vast universe; may take us a while to find the signs.
[13:07:38] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): We’re just now finding the exo-planets.
[13:07:40] Seren (serendipity.seraph): we have no idea much what 96% of the stuff out there (Dark Matter/Energy) really is.
[13:07:53] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): It’s missing socks, Seren
[13:08:00] Metafire Horsley: Nah, the Fermi paradox is just a sign that we live in a huge MMORPG.
[13:08:08] Bogdan Ixtab: 🙂
[13:08:11] Arch (archmage.atlantis): I have an invite to dance…..conuntry…. line dance……juat dance, no commitment. ……c u guys later
[13:08:22] Ivy Sunkiller: byes Arch
[13:08:31] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Great, ARch, you found another country place
[13:08:33] Bogdan Ixtab: bye
[13:08:34] Khannea Suntzu: Yah I am gona shut down as well.
[13:08:48] TR Amat: Radioactive socks…
[13:09:12] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): well, Khannea, thanks for hosting this.
[13:09:22] Khannea Suntzu: Thank you all for attending sweets
[13:09:23] Seren (serendipity.seraph): me too. great to be here. great to see you back, khannea!
[13:09:36] TR Amat: Interesting…
[13:09:39] Metafire Horsley: Will this kind of meeting happen every week from now on?
[13:09:40] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Yeah, we’ve missed you, Khannea
[13:09:54] Khannea Suntzu: I had fun Rhi, dont worry
[13:09:55] Metafire Horsley: Yeah, welcome back to reality, Khannea 🙂
[13:10:00] Bogdan Ixtab: great conversation
[13:10:09] Khannea Suntzu: Oh put a sock in it.
[13:10:12] Arisia Vita: I must run too, if only I can get out of this Venus fly trap chair of Ivy’s….
[13:10:15] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Yeah, welcome back to your friends and family
[13:10:18] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Khannea, lmao
[13:10:18] Ivy Sunkiller: byes Ari!
[13:10:23] Arch (archmage.atlantis) is Offline
[13:10:24] Khannea Suntzu: Oh by the way
[13:10:25] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): At least you got the odd sock joke
[13:10:33] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): bye Arisia
[13:10:33] Khannea Suntzu: Anyone here who ever visits the Netherlands
[13:10:34] Ivy Sunkiller: standing up should work 🙂
[13:10:56] Khannea Suntzu: I do date, and I am pansexual and I do not judge on appearances. Look me up.
[13:11:33] Khannea Suntzu: Extropia does her poem
[13:11:39] Khannea Suntzu: I try and fuck my audience
[13:12:14] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Why did Bogdan need to stand up?
[13:12:33] Bogdan Ixtab: ?
[13:12:54] Khannea Suntzu smiles
[13:12:58] Bogdan Ixtab: I was just visiting the surroundings…
[13:12:59] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Well, soomeone said, ‘standing up should fix it,’ and then you stood up, Bogdan
[13:13:01] Metafire Horsley: Does anyone have an idea how I could brand my new personal development blog?
[13:13:10] Ivy Sunkiller: I said, to Arisia 🙂
[13:13:13] Bogdan Ixtab: no, that was not related… 🙂
[13:13:23] Khannea Suntzu: Meta’s Personal Development Blog
[13:13:33] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): oh, Ivy. I see. What did he have to fix; was he stuck in your football?
[13:13:36] Khannea Suntzu: ICARUS
[13:13:38] Metafire Horsley: ( I said goodbye to university, see here http://deathrant.net/2011/03/university-drop-out/ )
[13:13:39] TR Amat: The Horse Laugh? 🙂
[13:13:47] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): OMG, TR
[13:13:48] Ivy Sunkiller: ballchair, apparently yes
[13:14:13] Metafire Horsley: The Horse Laugh. Not too bad 🙂
[13:14:14] Metafire Horsley: whinnys!
[13:14:34] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): Could be a subtitle, Meta, but do you want it read?
[13:15:00] Metafire Horsley: Yeah, let all people on the world read it and learn and give me money 😉
[13:15:35] Rhiannon of the Birds (rhiannon.dragoone): You laugh, Meta, but I have a friend who rakes in thousands a day from his website; with the right marketing, you could do that