Premise: The second debate in the 911 series follows hot on the heels of the earlier debate. The basic argument in short is that all of the modern, democratic, affluent world (US, EU, Japan, Australia, Russia?) is entering a period of significant upheaval. The philosopher Zizek already suggested that “modern society probably won’t be able persist unless it becomes increasingly authoritarian”. I think he is right, but not because democracy is so flawed’ – it’s rather because we “can’t afford a full-fledged democracy anymore”.
When you run the calculations, we discover that there is enough energy in a gallon of gas (38,000 kilocalories) to be roughly equivalent to a human person working 500 hours. This is called an “energy slave”. Since we use fossil fuels in so many ways, for transportation, for industry to make our consumer goods, for heating our homes and running our appliances, for agriculture to grow our food, etc…. it turns out that the average European uses the equivalent of 100 energy slaves to maintain their lifestyle.
So – when all these energy slaves fall away, between now and 2050 – we can’t afford such a complex society. We can’t afford the same old cold war entitlements. The military will eat up ever higher budgets. Welfare states will have to cut down, and even then some will become effectively insolvent. It’s 2010 and already we see the signs of the US exploding into super-inflation and losing credibility as a reliable place to invest in government bonds. What will be the end result? More police, more laws, more repression, more protests, more paranoid, more enemies inside and out. We’ll revert to autocratic style societies.
And now the question beckons – can we see what happened at 9/11 in this sinister light? Was 9/11 a ‘shock to the system‘ as Naomi Klein calls it? Do we have a diversified democratic system only insofar we have the energy to make it operate. And voters will expect a democratic, free society, unless autocratic politicians slap us over the head a few times.
Party is over guys 🙂
These four events:
Saturday 2 October. 9:30 SLT : “Why do ‘truthers’ believe 9/11 was an ‘inside-job ?”
Saturday, 2 October, 12:30 SLT : “The Dance of Death”
Sunday, 3 October, 9:30 SLT: “We Know Best – ‘End Game Realists’ (NeoConservatives of all Stripes)”
Sunday, 3 October, 12:30 SLT: “How Far Will They Go?”
Red: Democracy was always an overrated idea. It just doesn’t work. Oil has nothing to do with it. Seriously, we have enough oil to last us centuries. The whole ‘peak oil’ story is just bunk. What however isn’t bunk is people everywhere thinking they are entitled to a free meal. This is impossible. The world is not a happy place, and no matter how voters whine they won’t get a free paycheck for doing nothing. The problem with the western world isn’t the big bad corporations, or China or silliness like ‘oil running out’, or the climate. It is that we are all lazy, we prefer playing wow over getting a solid degree, we are all spoiled rotten.
Blue: Our modern industrial societies are collapsing. We need to cut back consumption. And that’s just fine, because we can’t afford to consume that much anymore. The environment needs stabilizing and to do this the entire western world needs more than half its current affluence levels. This is needed to ‘save mother earth’. The corporations are to blame. Big governments are too blame. The current system conspires to castrate voters in democracies and make people powerless.
Time/Date: Saturday 2 October, 12:30 SLT, about 60-90 minutes.
Location : Delinquent 213, 200, 742, SLURL
* Slavoj Zizek, ‘The Monstrosity of Christ”
* Naomi Klein
* German Army
* Peak Oil Hausfrau
* Zizek on ‘Examined life‘
* RSA Animate
* Chomsky ‘Big business dictates the Presidency‘
* Chomsky on ‘peak oil‘ , another
[12:21] Metafire Horsley: What was that stuff about easter island?
[12:21] You: I’ll explain in ten minutes equestrius
[12:21] Lucca Seid: yay
[12:21] Zobeid Zuma: OK, I skimmed that and totally disagree with both the Red and the Blue positions. What happens? 😀
[12:22] Peer Infinity: aw, Khannea got slightly less naked 😛
[12:23] You: There Zobi
[12:23] You: Thats your chair
[12:23] Zobeid Zuma: Easter Island is a fairy tale that ecology fanatics tell one another, based on some fraudulent archaelogical research.
[12:23] Zobeid Zuma hmms. . . .
[12:23] You: I will take this in consideration Zob
[12:24] Metafire Horsley: The latest theory I’ve read about the decline of Easter Island was that it was caused by imported rats.
[12:24] You: See? I care for you sweet.
[12:25] Zobeid Zuma: Ah, nice color. 🙂
[12:26] Peer Infinity: Zobeid looks pretty 🙂
[12:26] Zobeid Zuma: Thank you!
[12:27] Zobeid Zuma: hmmmmm. . . Khannea’s dance looks particularly interesting in Imprudence.
[12:28] Immm Back: hello
[12:28] Lucca Seid: hello Immm
[12:30] You: Hello Mistress :))
[12:31] Immm Back: lick my boots
[12:31] Khannea Suntzu lifts Mistress boot and softly swallows the tip in a willing and servile mouth
[12:32] Joy Larkspur: ummm is this where the discussion is supposed to be?
[12:32] Alaya Kumaki: the latest thing i heard about easter island is that it was inhabitated, it was only a place where the ships made an escale to get some woods and food, they needed to continue the road
[12:32] Khannea Suntzu glorks softly at the boot
[12:32] You: Yes GJOYGL
[12:33] Joy Larkspur: is this where we are going to discuss politics?
[12:33] Xeno Octavia: hi all missed pt 1 : ((
[12:33] You: I suppose so yes, Joy
[12:33] You: We had a meeting this morning
[12:34] You: From my perspective however that was 1830
[12:34] Joy Larkspur: i love the subject. I havent been in many discussions lately
[12:34] You: And you will find the transcript of the discussion here…
[12:34] You: http://khanneasuntzu.com/2010/09/27/red-versus-blue-why-do-truthers-believe-911-was-an-inside-job/
[12:35] You: This meeting is called ‘Dance of Death’
[12:35] You: http://khanneasuntzu.com/2010/09/27/red-versus-blue-the-dance-of-death-democracy-entitlements-populists-and-oil/
[12:35] You: and it is a cold cynical look at where our leaders, democratically elected
[12:35] You: Or not
[12:35] Xeno Octavia: this a trik chair : )
[12:35] You: are taking us
[12:36] You: In defense of George Dubya Bush… let’s assume this man is an nlightened, wise man.
[12:36] Peer Infinity: yay Rhi’s here 🙂
[12:36] Xeno Octavia: hi Rhia : )
[12:36] You: I know it’s a hard sell
[12:36] You: But lets for now assume he is a genius, and a true philosopher
[12:36] Joy Larkspur: for sure
[12:36] Joy Larkspur: mm
[12:36] You: Lets assume Dubya
[12:36] Joy Larkspur: haha
[12:36] You: knows information we do not know
[12:36] Joy Larkspur: well he does that
[12:36] Rhiannon Dragoone: hi romi, Poppy, Khannea, Meta, Zobeid, Xeno, Joy, lmmm, laserhop, alaya
[12:37] Joy Larkspur: hello
[12:37] Zobeid Zuma: hi. . .
[12:37] You: Namely that very soon western society is going to collapse totally, and several billion people on this planet will die, screaming
[12:37] You: Because that is one analysis of oil running out
[12:37] Zobeid Zuma: That’s a fringe analysis.
[12:38] You: Irrigation
[12:38] You: Fertillizers
[12:38] You: Does anytone here have an understanding of the implications of oil depletion when it comes to
[12:38] You: Plastics
[12:38] You: Transport
[12:38] You: Refridgeration
[12:38] Zobeid Zuma: I’ve studied the issue quite a bit.
[12:38] Joy Larkspur: well there are indications of our food supplies running out and are compromised
[12:38] You: Whats your analysis, Zobi?
[12:38] Joy Larkspur: i think oil is going to be the least of probs
[12:38] Rhiannon Dragoone: Khannea, yeah, they might have go get oil form soy products for plastics
[12:38] Xeno Octavia: or off Dubya
[12:38] Alaya Kumaki: hi rhi
[12:39] You: Yes and how will we GROW that soy? Soy requires quite a bit of fertillizers and pesticides does it not?
[12:39] Zobeid Zuma: My analysis is that we’ll have to stop burning oil as fuel, and use alternatives.
[12:39] You: These are all oil based products
[12:39] Zobeid Zuma: Not stand by idly wringing our hands while civilization collapses.
[12:39] You: WHAT alternatives?
[12:39] Xeno Octavia: solar power
[12:39] Alaya Kumaki: do we have to use energy at a fast rate of production , we can just slow donw production, to a rate of renuable energy
[12:40] Peer gives Rhiannon a big hug.
[12:40] You: Solar cant, if we invested MAXIMUM in it, using the most sophisticated technology
[12:40] Xeno Octavia: thas what souls are for
[12:40] Alaya Kumaki: renewable**
[12:40] Zobeid Zuma: Nuclear, solar, geothermal energy, various kinds of biomass and biofuels, etc. Take your pick. There’s a long list to choose from.
[12:40] Joy Larkspur: i think ppl will find technologies etc
[12:40] Alaya Kumaki: the speed in time make a big diference
[12:40] Joy Larkspur: and prob some that are already existent
[12:40] Joy Larkspur: but are suppressed by the major oil companies
[12:40] You: not even keep up by 5-10% of enetrgy GROWTH in demand, let alone in total falling away stocks
[12:40] You: Or the total consumption
[12:40] Xeno Octavia: get rid of the extra terrestrials
[12:40] Joy Larkspur: because of the competion with be dependent on their sources
[12:40] Xeno Octavia: 6 billion of them at least
[12:41] Joy Larkspur: ppl have ingenuity
[12:41] Joy Larkspur: and will start thinking beyond limitations
[12:41] Joy Larkspur: beyond what they have been taught
[12:41] Metafire Horsley: ppl have nucelar power 😉
[12:41] Joy Larkspur: and conditioned to believe
[12:41] You: IN WW2 and thereafter 100 million people died. We didn’t have nukes. WAhat will happen exactly, when 6 billion die?
[12:41] Alaya Kumaki: yu eat yur garden at the speed rate it is growing, if yu do ti faster, that it has time to renew it self, meaning that yu dont let the rest, , or eat the roots, witout secondary alternative,, or alternating land crops, yu wont have food
[12:41] Joy Larkspur: dont forget the bees
[12:41] Zobeid Zuma: Your scare tactics are unwarranted, Khannea.
[12:42] Joy Larkspur: i think the gm crops are killing the bees
[12:42] Joy Larkspur: our water is compromised
[12:42] You: Are theyu scare tactics? I think tghey are documented facts.
[12:42] Alaya Kumaki: yes the bees, cant suport strong chemical spraying on food
[12:42] Xeno Octavia: if thru none nuclear extinction a cleaner planet
[12:42] Joy Larkspur: monsanto is trying to acquire water rights to cities
[12:42] Zobeid Zuma: Nobody has documented 6 billion people dying. That’s a scare tactic.
[12:42] Joy Larkspur: the foods
[12:42] Alaya Kumaki: really joy?
[12:42] You: Xeno came up with that idea. Read back.
[12:42] Joy Larkspur: crops will become sterile
[12:42] Joy Larkspur: and will not reproduce
[12:42] Alaya Kumaki: aw gosh
[12:42] Joy Larkspur: unless ppl grown their own food
[12:43] Zobeid Zuma: It’s the deliberate choice of a worst-case scenario in order to rile people up.
[12:43] Rhiannon Dragoone: I believe the world is abundant; we jsut have to remove restrainst from using our imaginations to solve our problems
[12:43] Joy Larkspur: and remove corps from controling out foods
[12:43] Xeno Octavia: yes extra terrestrials is the problem 6 B extra
[12:43] Joy Larkspur: they are indusgtrialized now
[12:43] Joy Larkspur: laws are trying to get passed
[12:43] Joy Larkspur: food safety bills
[12:43] You: I agree zobi, rhianno, that we can solve problems.
[12:43] Zobeid Zuma: In other words, a typical Fox News / Drudge Report yellow journalism tactic. 🙂
[12:43] Alaya Kumaki: well, i think that the soils and oceans are already not so clean, not all over
[12:43] Joy Larkspur: where codex is being mandated
[12:43] Joy Larkspur: bp spill
[12:43] Joy Larkspur: very toxic
[12:43] Joy Larkspur: corexit
[12:43] You: However, I am analyzing what might be living in the mind of a person like George W. Bush./
[12:43] Joy Larkspur: seafood – gone now
[12:44] You: Have you people ever heard of
[12:44] You: a firesale?
[12:44] Joy Larkspur: he doesnt think of how it will effect other ppl
[12:44] Joy Larkspur: like u and i
[12:44] You: Everything must go?
[12:44] Rhiannon Dragoone: Khannea, yes, its good to identify the problems, but that’s the wrong foucs–we should focus on solutions, not problems
[12:44] Joy Larkspur: but him and his family
[12:44] Zobeid Zuma: GW was not a deep thinker.
[12:44] You: I agree
[12:44] Joy Larkspur: i think he is a puppet
[12:44] Zobeid Zuma: Cheney on the other hand. . .
[12:44] Joy Larkspur: and they know he’s not bright
[12:44] Joy Larkspur: haha
[12:44] Joy Larkspur: yes
[12:44] You: and what if he was overseeing the deconstruction of the US?
[12:44] You: Taking it down a notch?
[12:44] Joy Larkspur: it wouldnt surprise me
[12:45] Joy Larkspur: i think most ppl in pretty high positions
[12:45] Joy Larkspur: knows what is happening to us
[12:45] Joy Larkspur: they much tremendous money from the corproations
[12:45] Joy Larkspur: that is why they turn the other way
[12:45] Xeno Octavia: thge only real solution is to evolve –or to die [go exteinct] and trhe ‘ruling’ species has decided —DIE!
[12:45] Joy Larkspur: as long as they are ok
[12:45] Joy Larkspur: and be protected
[12:45] Joy Larkspur: with the corps will
[12:45] You: Todays event>>
[12:45] You: Premise: The second debate in the 911 series follows hot on the heels of the earlier debate. The basic argument in short is that all of the modern, democratic, affluent world (US, EU, Japan, Australia, Russia?) is entering a period of significant upheaval. The philosopher Zizek already suggested that “modern society probably won’t be able persist unless it becomes increasingly authoritarian”. I think he is right, but not because democracy is so flawed’ – it’s rather because we “can’t afford a full-fledged democracy anymore”.
[12:46] You: “When you run the calculations, we discover that there is enough energy in a gallon of gas (38,000 kilocalories) to be roughly equivalent to a human person working 500 hours. This is called an “energy slave”. Since we use fossil fuels in so many ways, for transportation, for industry to make our consumer goods, for heating our homes and running our appliances, for agriculture to grow our food, etc…. it turns out that the average European uses the equivalent of 100 energy slaves to maintain their lifestyle.”
[12:46] Joy Larkspur: i think ppl will want smaller establishments of a collective
[12:46] You: So – when all these energy slaves fall away, between now and 2050 – we can’t afford such a complex society. We can’t afford the same old cold war entitlements. The military will eat up ever higher budgets. Welfare states will have to cut down, and even then some will become effectively insolvent. It’s 2010 and already we see the signs of the US exploding into super-inflation and losing credibility as a reliable place to invest in government bonds. What will be the end result? More police, more laws, more repression, more protests, more paranoid, more enemies inside and out. We’ll revert to autocratic style societies.
[12:46] Joy Larkspur: because these kind of systems are not for our benefit
[12:47] Xeno Octavia: scarier to most rather than authoritarian is deeper intimacy
[12:47] Zobeid Zuma: Flawed premise. . . It assumes oil energy will decline and no other source will be exploited to replace it.
[12:47] Joy Larkspur: so much of what man has been conditioned to believe is because of the systems we have depended on (govt) and the media
[12:47] Zobeid Zuma: Sort of like saying the world was going to go dark when whale oil ran out. :/
[12:47] Joy Larkspur: there are ppl who are not so dependent on oil
[12:47] Joy Larkspur: ppl who are thinking ahead
[12:47] Joy Larkspur: and waking up
[12:47] Joy Larkspur: so many of our probs stems from oil
[12:47] Joy Larkspur: environmental
[12:47] Xeno Octavia: get ridda oil prob less oily world
[12:48] Joy Larkspur: which has now compromised our food supplies
[12:48] Joy Larkspur: not only with seafood but crops neat those areas
[12:48] Joy Larkspur: the toxicity on humans is tremendous
[12:48] Metafire Horsley: There would also be the possibility of burning methane hydrates.
[12:48] Joy Larkspur: in comes from the rain
[12:48] You: It isn’t my idea Zobi. And I insist there are solutions. But I am not seeing any emerge.
[12:48] Joy Larkspur: there are technologies that can be harnessed that is not harmful
[12:48] Zobeid Zuma: I can *temporary* energy shortage — maybe 15 years, 20 at most — while the frantic transition efforts are underway. But I don’t see a long-term energy constrained world. There’s no reason for it.
[12:48] Joy Larkspur: tesla has great discoveries in that
[12:49] Metafire Horsley: http://www.energybulletin.net/node/51517
[12:49] Zobeid Zuma: Not seeing any emerge?
[12:49] You: Thorium is a solution
[12:49] You: But there are massive problems with thorium
[12:49] Zobeid Zuma: I said solar, nuclear, geothermal, biofuel. Do I need to write an essay on each of them? 😛
[12:49] Rhiannon Dragoone likes thorium
[12:50] Xeno Octavia: i have solution but ppl wont do it the tooo entrenched in KRAP!
[12:50] Zobeid Zuma: Let’s hear it Xeno.
[12:50] You: Zobi read this quote:
[12:50] You: Mike Sneed wrote in a report:
He wrote, if we just take the US – If the US built 70 new one gigawatt nuclear plants ….. if the US were to build and install (and operate) one million large wind turbines across 5000 miles of coast line ….. if the US also add the equivalent of 15 hoover dams … if it was to upscale its geothermal capacity by a factor of times 50 the current … if the US also collect 2 billion tons of biomass and use that per year …. and in addition to all of that if it were to build a staggering 60.000 square miles of solar if all that were to happen, cumulatively, by 2100 the US would not be producing a third of the power it would need by then. Worse, even if the US did this TODAY, it wouldn’t even be able to replace the fossil fuel usage in the US. (video below)
[12:50] Xeno Octavia: Evolver a healthy societal species and intimacy rtather than alienation based species
[12:51] Zobeid Zuma: Good quote. He’s just proving that the problem is solvable, we just have to think big. Bump those numbers up some more and at some point it’ll balance out.
[12:51] Zobeid Zuma: Why only 70 nuclear plants? I heard China is planning 300 new ones.
[12:52] You: Its not my quote Zobi
[12:52] You: Its the quote of a major specialist
[12:52] Zobeid Zuma: And upscaling geothermal by a mere 50 times the current level is a joke, we’re hardly doing anything with geothermal now.
[12:52] Zobeid Zuma: 50 times nearly nothing is still nearly nothing.
[12:52] You: I *AGREE* there are solutions
[12:53] You: But I am doing the maths and my numbers suggest we as a society will hurt if oil falls away because we wont, by a LONG shot be well able to generate alternatives
[12:53] Rhiannon Dragoone is the very model of a modern major specialist
[12:53] You: In effect in the western world we lose half our standard of living
[12:53] Rhiannon Dragoone: Khannea, well, we could, if we got on the stick
[12:54] You: In the third world people will be pushed in famine, wars
[12:54] Metafire Horsley: Losing half of the insane standard of living doesn’t sound like a terrible catastrophe to me.
[12:54] Rhiannon Dragoone realizes that with darcon dancing, that could have obscene connotations and blushes
[12:54] You: I wouldnt mind, Meta
[12:54] You: But people would KILL to retain theirs
[12:54] Rhiannon Dragoone: Khannea, its all a matter of political will
[12:54] You: AHHHHH
[12:54] Zobeid Zuma: There is room for some gains in efficiency. I’m sure the rising cost of energy will force us to get serious about that, when it’s crunch time.
[12:55] You: YES RHIANNON
[12:55] Rhiannon Dragoone: We could feed the world’s ppl now, if it weren’t for price controls, collective farming, farm boards
[12:55] Rhiannon Dragoone: Same thing goes for energy
[12:55] You whisper: DOES GEORGE WALKER BUSH HAVE ANY?
[12:55] You: OR was he holding a fire sale?
[12:55] Rhiannon Dragoone: Yeah, we might have to use horses again until we have public transportation, but the solutions are there
[12:55] You: Go to sleep while all major corporations leave for Dubaj and China
[12:55] Metafire Horsley doesn’t want to be used for transportation 🙁
[12:55] Rhiannon Dragoone: me neither, Meta
[12:56] You: Rhiannon said PUBLIC not PUBIC
[12:56] Rhiannon Dragoone: I would make a terrible beast of burden, unlike my namesake
[12:56] Zobeid Zuma: Standard of living is a rather dubious concept in its own right. . . .
[12:57] Rhiannon Dragoone: Khannea, the point is with thorium, with microwave transmissions of sunlight from satellites, with coal shale, we have abundance; same thing goes for food production
[12:57] You: Yet still people would kill for theirs
[12:57] Rhiannon Dragoone: We just need to liberate it
[12:57] You: THERE IS NO NEGOTIATING OUR STANDARD OF LIVING
[12:57] Zobeid Zuma: Coal shale?
[12:57] You: I dismiss coal shale as bogus, but who am I?
[12:57] Zobeid Zuma: There is oil shale, but it’s not a good energy source.
[12:58] Zobeid Zuma: If we get to a point where energy is cheap and plentiful, then oil shale might become a good source of hydrocarbons for the petrochemical industry.
[12:58] Rhiannon Dragoone: My point is that the energy is out there, alternative transportaion is out there; its a lack of political will
[12:58] Xeno Octavia: we need go to old times like aborigines : )
[12:58] Rhiannon Dragoone: Its like superman in a cage; all he had to do to escape was walk out; all we have to do to escabe these disasters is to avoid them
[12:58] You: Yah well
[12:59] You: These events so far, in fact the entiurity of my Red versuys BLUE events is a lead-in for something
[12:59] You: Let that be clear
[12:59] You: And that something is SPS
[12:59] You: I am in favor of radical investment in SPS
[13:00] Zobeid Zuma: Don’t underestimate the importance of free market capitalism in the coming energy crunch. This is the kind of crisis that the capitalist system was *made* to deal with.
[13:00] Rhiannon Dragoone: Zobeid, yes, that’s exactly what i mean by removing the restrictions
[13:00] You: http://terasemcolony.wordpress.com/
[13:00] Rhiannon Dragoone: You remove the restrictions, the marke will provide; the earth *is* abundant
[13:00] Rhiannon Dragoone: *market
[13:01] You: I have very very little trust in that system. and I for one would not lay my head under that headman’s axe you call capitalism.
[13:01] You: And I am pretty sure most people in favor of that nightmare will have learned better in as little as five years time.
[13:01] Zobeid Zuma: Free markets do some things well and some things poorly. Prioritizing scarce resources is one they they do *well*.
[13:01] You: Mark my words.
[13:01] Rhiannon Dragoone: Zobeid, and liberating productive imaginations
[13:02] You: Yes and they are great at marginalizing people into poverty and apathy and despair. And triggering bloody revolutions.
[13:02] Rhiannon Dragoone: Yes, they aren’t all that great on distribution issues, necessarily
[13:02] Zobeid Zuma: And the whole capitalist system was formed to amass the kind of resource investment that will be needed to tackle a problem of this scale.
[13:02] Rhiannon Dragoone: Khannea, nope; that’s *always* a matter of statism; give one example where a free, unregulated market did that
[13:02] Metafire Horsley: Free markets do work quite nicely. But not for everyone’s advantage in every case…
[13:02] Rhiannon Dragoone: No govenment involvement; no lobbyhing; no regulations, no artificial concentration of capital, nothing
[13:03] You: I’ll give you a list. Better, I’ll have Chomsky quote you a list over a 3 hour span lecture.
[13:03] You: He is pretty good at those.
[13:03] Zobeid Zuma: I learned to disregard Chomsky long ago.
[13:04] Xeno Octavia: chumpsy a ——
[13:04] Zobeid Zuma: Chimpsky? 🙂
[13:04] You: I love the guy 🙂
[13:05] You: He is my hero 🙂
[13:05] Xeno Octavia: really or sarcasm
[13:05] You: I am really
[13:05] Xeno Octavia: ah : (((
[13:05] You: I am not american.
[13:05] You: We aren’t arrested here for being prop chomsky
[13:05] Xeno Octavia: i not really human!
[13:06] Zobeid Zuma: Now *that* was sarcasm.
[13:06] You: Yes
[13:06] You: I concur that was
[13:06] You: Then again
[13:06] You: Maybe it was irony
[13:06] Rhiannon Dragoone: oh, naughty, naughty, khannea; we aren’t arrested for being pro Chomsky either
[13:06] You: :))
[13:06] Rhiannon Dragoone: Just as long as we don’t understand him, we’re fine
[13:06] Zobeid Zuma: Particularly since the USA is one of few countries that takes freedom of speech (mostly) seriously.
[13:07] Khannea Suntzu snortles
[13:07] Xeno Octavia: oks whats focus of pt 2 again
[13:07] You: Anyways, I am raising the suggestion that 911 was engineered
[13:07] Rhiannon Dragoone: yeah, we let anyone say anything, but the gov. does cut off their microphone, from time to time
[13:07] You: and acted as a clarion call for occuipational wars
[13:07] You: largely to get oil
[13:07] You: a resource that is running out
[13:08] Rhiannon Dragoone: i can see a time where the gov will send dissenters out into a field in buses, and allow them to shout until they are blue in the face; with their only audience cows
[13:08] You: and that the signs are that the corporate sector has stopped investing in the US, insofar it isn’t actually leaving
[13:08] Xeno Octavia: t6hat the blu part what the red
[13:09] Rhiannon Dragoone: Xeno, ketchep; it goes well with steak–and there will be *all* those cows
[13:09] Xeno Octavia: yes cows a methane prob –so raygun sed
[13:09] You: ahhhh
[13:09] You: these poor feet
[13:09] Rhiannon Dragoone: Methane can be a source of energy
[13:09] Zobeid Zuma: Yeah, the taxes and regulations here are pushing businesses away. 🙁
[13:09] MystiTool HUD 1.3.1: Entering chat range: Serendipity Seraph (3m)
[13:10] You: Heya sipples 🙂
[13:10] Rhiannon Dragoone: So a solution–silence dissent, feed ppl and solve the energy crisis
[13:10] Xeno Octavia: yes when cant burn CO2
[13:10] Rhiannon Dragoone: Hi Seren!
[13:10] Zobeid Zuma: The USA has one of the highest corporate taxes in the world.
[13:10] You: Zobi would you give Sipples a rundown of the rantings so far?
[13:10] Serendipity Seraph: hey all. what is the argument?
[13:10] Xeno Octavia: we play not argu
[13:11] You: My throat is a bit raw
[13:11] Zobeid Zuma: Who?
[13:11] Rhiannon Dragoone: Seren, whether we will run out of resources cuz we’re idiots
[13:11] Serendipity Seraph: out of resources now to bring entire plan up to 1st world standards
[13:11] Rhiannon Dragoone: Seren, Khannea gave a good analysis of our dire fate, and we’re debating the inevitability of it
[13:12] Serendipity Seraph: I know this dance..
[13:12] You: Yah will I am bringing it down to oil I suppose
[13:12] You: What no Extropia, Serendipity?
[13:13] Serendipity Seraph: oil? hmm. two choices. much higher energy prices and all that means or very cheap electricity within decade.
[13:14] Serendipity Seraph: some argue oil is headed back to $200/bbl RSN
[13:15] You: (PLease tip to keep the sim financially sustainable)
[13:15] Serendipity Seraph: she dropped out at botgirl exhibit. very crowded, lots of lag.
[13:15] Serendipity Seraph: great exhibit though.
[13:15] Uber Donation Box v1.0 (Trans): 200L$ donated. Thanks for the donation !
[13:15] Uber Donation Box v1.0 (Trans): 400L$ donated. Thanks for the donation !
[13:16] Serendipity Seraph: so what solutions to energy crisis?
[13:17] You: Thorium for starters
[13:17] darcon Xue: the energy crisis is fake.
[13:17] You: I have always been a staunch supportter of Thorium
[13:17] You: No Darcon
[13:17] Zobeid Zuma: Let’s see. . . I said solar nuclear and geothermal, and then Khannea said that’s not enough, and then I said you just have to think big. . .
[13:17] Xeno Octavia: lithium kool too
[13:17] darcon Xue: it is Khannea
[13:18] Rhiannon Dragoone: hi kirin!
[13:18] You: The energy crisis is not fake. If we don’t deal with it, a few billion people may die. I am 100% sure of this. It is by far the biggest challenge humanity has ever faced.
[13:18] Kirin Writer: Hi Rhi
[13:18] Serendipity Seraph: what is enough?
[13:18] Xeno Octavia: hi Kirin
[13:18] Zobeid Zuma: Yeah, every crisis is “the biggest one ever”. :/
[13:18] Zobeid Zuma: Although admittedly, this one is a doozy.
[13:18] You: Love, we consume 15 terawatt of energy, globally
[13:19] Kirin Writer: Hi Xeno, everyone
[13:19] darcon Xue: any person can have your how home power source
[13:19] darcon Xue: own*
[13:19] You: Between now and 2015 we need to replace 12 terawatt and increase to even grow MINIMALLY to 14.
[13:19] You: 40
[13:19] Serendipity Seraph: why 12 TW replaced by 2015? peak oil is real but not that fast
[13:19] You: we cannot like ever do that even if we go all out on solar, wind, thorium, wind, waterm, hydro, geo, coal, nuclear.
[13:20] You: Not even HALF
[13:20] Zobeid Zuma: A lot of that growth needs to be in India and China. But they aren’t replacing a huge existing infrastructure, they’re starting from a more-or-less clean slate.
[13:20] You: I bloody hope so
[13:20] Serendipity Seraph: bull, Khannea. nuclear can do that much. or are you saying we can’t build them that fast?
[13:20] You: If they fail they’ll all become refugees
[13:20] Zobeid Zuma: Yeah, I was wondering if you didn’t really mean 2100 or something. :/
[13:20] Rhiannon Dragoone: Khannea, u remind me of the ppl in Asimov’s Foundation; he made a point that a civiliazation was in collapse when scientists and scholars were saying, ‘no, it can’t be done.’
[13:20] Rhiannon Dragoone: Because, yeah, it can be done
[13:21] Rhiannon Dragoone: Ask yourself, Khannea, the magic question–well, if we could do it, how would we?
[13:21] You: We can with some difficulty build nuclear power plants in the EU, the US
[13:21] Xeno Octavia: is good almost 2012 –no more problems
[13:21] Serendipity Seraph: china is very dirty slate with bunch of coal burned in worse ways than we did even before we started cleaning up the smokestacks
[13:21] You: However in Iran? Nepal? Senegal? Qhatar? North Korea? Give me a break.
[13:21] darcon Xue: the govern knows about free energy sources but it gives freedom to the people
[13:22] darcon Xue: the people do not want be free
[13:22] You: Complete and utter bullshit darcon. Harry potter make belief.
[13:22] Zobeid Zuma gives Darcon some orgone energy!
[13:22] Serendipity Seraph: I think we do need to replace a lot of current energy tech by 2020. sort of agree but don’t think we need to replace TWs as quickly as 4 years from now. could be wrong.
[13:22] Xeno Octavia: harry will save us all!!
[13:22] Rhiannon Dragoone: Harry Potter shows how all things are possible–a bed time story is a best seller; and bread mold is medicine.
[13:22] Rhiannon Dragoone: Windmalls aren’t giants, but they might be
[13:23] Serendipity Seraph: don’t care about a pest hole like North Korea. Give them fusion and they would still be utterly screwed up.
[13:23] Rhiannon Dragoone: Liberate the mind and you solve all problems
[13:23] Zobeid Zuma: We’re still building new coal-fired power plants. Those plants are supposed to have at least a 40 year life span.
[13:23] You: 2010-2050, projected growth in demand, 15-40 terawatt
[13:23] Zobeid Zuma: So somebody doesn’t think we’ll be off fossil fuels within 40 years. :/
[13:23] You: 2010-2050, projected output of oil based energy 100%-0%
[13:23] Serendipity Seraph: wind is not economically viable as primary power and likely never will be
[13:23] Xeno Octavia: i think wiill if go extinct by 40 yrs
[13:24] Zobeid Zuma: Wind is like hydro power. It’s good in some areas, but it’s not going to power the country.
[13:24] You: No, its more like we become a global afghanistan if we fuck up. Global population in the order of half a billion. Lots of radioactive spots.
[13:24] darcon Xue: http://www.keppemotor.com/
[13:24] Serendipity Seraph: I don’t think we will be totally off coal and natural gas or even oil. But oil and NG (too lesser degree) will not be plentiful and economical any more to say the least
[13:25] Rhiannon Dragoone: Khannea, a global afganistan? you mean even Nebraska will get mountains and rocks? Cool
[13:25] Serendipity Seraph: coal will be burned for electricity until we have something cheaper
[13:25] Zobeid Zuma laughs at Darcon’s link! 😀
[13:25] Rhiannon Dragoone: Seren, nothing might be cheap in the short run, but in the long run it will; the market moves to efficiency
[13:25] You: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenu
[13:25] You: hehehehehe
[13:25] darcon Xue: They use fear to control us.
[13:26] Serendipity Seraph: cheap is the entire problem. if it is not cheap enough it will wreck the world regardless of how much you or I may like it.
[13:26] Xeno Octavia: that why i uncontrolled
[13:26] You: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hogwarts
[13:26] You: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter_bunny
[13:27] Kirin Writer: if I may comment. Please don’t forget about efficiency. Ingenuity is allow us to make things that eat less power all of the time
[13:27] Rhiannon Dragoone: Seren, i’m not saying there would be temp., local dislocations as we tool up, so yeah, we need to make it cheap soon, and I admit, that’s not going to happen
[13:27] Zobeid Zuma: That Xenu link is great. 🙂
[13:27] Rhiannon Dragoone: Kirin, exactly
[13:27] Rhiannon Dragoone: Ingenuity! That’s what i’ve been saying all along
[13:27] Rhiannon Dragoone: the world is abundant. We just have to figure out how to get its abundance
[13:27] Serendipity Seraph: sure. but not enough to lower power needs that significantly esp. w/ coal of raising world wide standard of living
[13:28] Zobeid Zuma: Whenever cars are made more efficient, people drive more. End result: no reduction in fuel used.
[13:28] darcon Xue: [13:28] Rhiannon Dragoone: the world is abundant. We just have to figure out how to get its abundance
[13:28] MystiTool HUD 1.3.1: Entering chat range: Je55ica Reilig (6m)
[13:28] Serendipity Seraph: hehe. need more virtual shopping and automatic delieveries
[13:28] Rhiannon Dragoone: Seren, yeah, i admit, there could be a whopping big correction, but we’ll live through it
[13:28] Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Je55ica!
[13:28] You: “Entertainment provided by the sexy and beautiful Rhiannon; You’re seen her when she talks; now see her moves when her mouth is shut”
[13:28] Xeno Octavia: didnt we already use thar t up Rhia
[13:28] Zobeid Zuma: Of course, all the studies that showed no reduction in fuel used were conducted during times when gasoline was relatively inexpensive. 🙂
[13:28] Je55ica Reilig: hi Rhi : )
[13:28] Rhiannon Dragoone laughs
[13:29] Serendipity Seraph: why do you think you will live through it? depends on what “it” is – no?
[13:29] Zobeid Zuma: Which to me just shows that the free market is in control.
[13:29] You: 🙂
[13:29] You: Hoi Graine
[13:29] Serendipity Seraph: there was reduction during the last price spike
[13:29] Zobeid Zuma: Yes there was.
[13:29] Graine Macbain: Hi Kannnea!
[13:29] Rhiannon Dragoone: Seren, will life is never guaranteed; i could be run over by a truck on my way to the libarary (which i need to leave for soon, btw); but I expect most of us will live gthrough the Correction
[13:30] Serendipity Seraph: also evidence of tranportation grid shifting
[13:30] Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Graine!
[13:30] Zobeid Zuma: Did any of you see the movie Who Killed the Electric Car?
[13:30] Graine Macbain: Hi again Rj=hi!
[13:30] You: Yah I did
[13:30] Rhiannon Dragoone: oh, that’s a pretty dress, Graine
[13:30] Graine Macbain whispers: Jezz, I meant Rhi!
[13:30] You: Pissed me off
[13:30] Graine Macbain: Thanks Rhi!
[13:30] Serendipity Seraph: it was overblown.
[13:30] Rhiannon Dragoone: But u’d better move; darcon is humping you where you’re standing
[13:30] Zobeid Zuma: That was a great story about the folly of governments trying to dictate technology to the marketplace.
[13:30] Graine Macbain: My fall fashion ensemble…
[13:30] Graine Macbain: eeek!
[13:31] Rhiannon Dragoone: its not his fault; you wer in the way of his dance ani
[13:31] Graine Macbain: Is he naked too?
[13:31] Rhiannon Dragoone: Graine, yeah, he’s always naked
[13:31] Serendipity Seraph: batteries are a problem for electrics. some not so plentiful materials in current ones
[13:31] Graine Macbain: I could save a bundle of L$ that way.
[13:31] Xeno Octavia: u were in the nekked circle –dangerous place
[13:32] You: His penis dangles back and forth like a baby on a noose
[13:32] Rhiannon Dragoone laughs at Xeno
[13:32] You: Its beautiful
[13:32] Graine Macbain: Especially where the male of the species is involved.
[13:32] Rhiannon Dragoone: rotfwl! omg, Khannea, what a metaphor
[13:32] Zobeid Zuma: I’m not aware of any such problem, Seren.
[13:32] darcon Xue: 😀
[13:32] Rhiannon Dragoone: Does this mean the serious convo is almost over
[13:32] Graine Macbain: Or a baby’s arm holding an apple.
[13:32] You: Yah
[13:32] Rhiannon Dragoone: Sucks in a breath, thanks, Zobeid for getting a serious point out
[13:32] You: I am through
[13:32] Xeno Octavia: batteries better than extension cord
[13:33] Zobeid Zuma: The only major problem with batteries right now is their cost, and that can be reduced through time-proven methods.
[13:33] Serendipity Seraph: lithium ion batteries include rare materials
[13:33] Zobeid Zuma: Which kind of lithium ion batteries? There’s a whole family of li-ion chemistries.
[13:34] Serendipity Seraph: neodyium for one.
[13:34] Serendipity Seraph: which was the point. need better battery tech
[13:34] Zobeid Zuma: I haven’t even heard about that being used in batteries. . .
[13:34] Serendipity Seraph: going forward
[13:35] Zobeid Zuma: Better battery technology is always welcome, and a lot of companies are working on that. But it’s not *necessary*. The battery technology we have today is adequate for the task.
[13:35] Metafire Horsley: Maybe hydrogen fuel cells will be better than batteries in the future.
[13:35] darcon Xue: why batery if you can get energy direct from the ambience?
[13:35] Serendipity Seraph: ambience?? what??
[13:36] darcon Xue: air
[13:36] darcon Xue: space
[13:36] Serendipity Seraph: no hydrogen is not so good
[13:36] darcon Xue: vacun
[13:36] Zobeid Zuma: I think that’s unlikely, Meta. The government pushed fuel cells hard for several years, and the results were disappointing.
[13:36] Serendipity Seraph: it is not adequate for full electric transport across the board
[13:36] Metafire Horsley: Were there results for batteries more encouraging?
[13:36] Zobeid Zuma: They made a lot of progress, but battery technology progressed a lot more during the same period.
[13:37] Zobeid Zuma: Plus, making hydrogen is an inefficient process.
[13:37] Rhiannon Dragoone: Graine, Xeno, ur both a picture of pretty fall colors
[13:37] Rhiannon Dragoone: nicely complement each other
[13:37] Zobeid Zuma: Plus, you need a whole new infrastructure to distribute the stuff.
[13:37] Graine Macbain: Thanks, Rhiannon…:)
[13:37] Xeno Octavia: TY Rhia : ))
[13:37] Rhiannon Dragoone: ur welcome
[13:37] Rhiannon Dragoone: Graine, Xeno
[13:38] Serendipity Seraph: if we want to switch all tranportation to electric then that will take pretty much a decade to do even with that much dependable cheap electricity
[13:39] Zobeid Zuma: Probably more like 15-20 years. It takes 20 years to turn over the vehicle fleet anyhow, no matter what you are changing to.
[13:39] Serendipity Seraph: there will be an interim. but easy to crack out liquid fuels given energy
[13:39] Serendipity Seraph: depends on cost of continuing to use IC and state of economy
[13:39] Xeno Octavia: why not export TPing and flying to FL –they send so much shies here : )0
[13:40] Serendipity Seraph: I think the economic meltdown is much bigger danger than energy in short term
[13:40] Serendipity Seraph: energy contributes but only one factor
[13:41] Xeno Octavia: b much easier after thew die-off
[13:41] Serendipity Seraph: if there is anything much left
[13:41] Serendipity Seraph: I don’t cotton to just accepting a die-off. you?
[13:42] Xeno Octavia: is ppls choice
[13:42] Zobeid Zuma: Right now there’s not much sense of urgency.
[13:42] Zobeid Zuma: But when the crunch hits and there *is* a sense of urgency, things will start to happen fast.
[13:43] Xeno Octavia: way way fast
[13:43] Metafire Horsley: Yes, but WHAT will happen exactly?
[13:43] Serendipity Seraph: unfortunately mostly bad things will happen fast
[13:43] Kirin Writer: Brown outs to start with
[13:43] Zobeid Zuma: Hard to predict exactly. That’s like forecasting the weather. :/
[13:43] Xeno Octavia: like those who race trains ta crossing in cars and usually get smaked ta deth!
[13:43] Kirin Writer: we have seen it before
[13:44] Metafire Horsley: If it was as easy as forecasting the weather, it would be pretty good 🙂
[13:44] Serendipity Seraph: double digit inflation, rush to spend $$ while they are worth something. massive business failures..
[13:44] Uber Donation Box v1.0 (Trans): 300L$ donated. Thanks for the donation !
[13:45] Xeno Octavia: if u are heading at great speed ta wall ya cant brake or gett outa way and cant rweally smak thru the wall but . . .
[13:45] Serendipity Seraph: that we will see massive inflation within the decade in US is pretty much foregone conclusion
[13:45] Kirin Writer: A brown out occurs when not enough power is being produced for an area. light bulbs become dimmer, thus the name
[13:45] Xeno Octavia: but if u do it write can becomre the wall and that works
[13:45] Serendipity Seraph: that we will see in all developed countries great cuts in programs is pretty certain too
[13:45] Rhiannon Dragoone: Kirin, oh, i thought it referred to a recall election when Jerry Brown or his father is in office in California
[13:46] Zobeid Zuma: A lot of people seem to think *deflation* is the immediate threat. :/
[13:46] You: Chatlog included : http://khanneasuntzu.com/2010/09/27/red-versus-blue-the-dance-of-death-democracy-entitlements-populists-and-oil/
[13:46] Serendipity Seraph: major riots? likely.
[13:46] Kirin Writer: You wil also see lines for fuel pumps, and a swift rise in price
[13:46] Serendipity Seraph: deflation is only temporary. cannot last
[13:46] Zobeid Zuma: Hey yeah. . . Were we supposed to talk about “entitlements” today?
[13:46] Kirin Writer: ala the 70s
4 thoughts on “RED versus BLUE – The Dance of Death – “Democracy, Entitlements, Populists – and Oil””
You’ve really bought into the whole peak oil doom thing haven’t you?
Try these antidotes:
Make sure you read *all* the posts and you’ll see why most (not all) the peak scare stories are just stories.
But the main clue is this:
1. We don’t need to replace ALL the energy we are using (because we WASTE most of it)
2. We don’t need to replace ALL the energy we’re using from drop dead date of peak oil (we only need to replace what’s missing).
Hmm half half.
Maybe I just use the peak oil argument as a crowbar to make space industrialization more credible?
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