Red versus Blue 2.001 – Does It Scale?

Infect Teh Interwebs

Date: 20 December 2011
Time: 1030-1200 CET, 21:30-1100 GMT, 13:30 SLT (please always doublecheck!)

Format: This is an RvB event. Make sure you understand the premises. This will be a non-voice event. I will be presenting a series of text-chat items and statements and may show slides. The format today is a presentation on my views and insights, and will be in the usual “versus” format.

Content: How much energy do we currently use as a global species? What do I mean with “scaling”? What scales? Are to arguments to conclude fossil fuels (specifically oil) is not anywhere near to scaling? Are there arguments to conclude alternative sources of energy may not scale? (cursory:) what are the consequences of shrinkage of available global energy? How bad may it get? Next week I will discuss what kind of sources of energy do scale.

Please consider making a donation in Linden$ to the land host or to me. We have a tipping jar.

Background reading:
* what is an energy carrier?
* Possible sources of energy
* How do we power the world?
* How much energy does the world consume?

[2011/12/20 13:09] Khannea Suntzu: Today’s event is part of a number of presentations in Second Life with a specific purpose. The purpose is to brainstorm specifically to speculate about near space industrialization. I discussed this before, so for some of you this is round two, and hopefully a more disciplined approach. As such please make as many constructive comments as you can, and try to limit any superfluous talk. Please pause all text chat chatter untill I have made introductions. PLEASE TRY AND KEEP UP since I will be doing the introduction rather quickly. Also, I’d like to ask everyone to spam any newcomers with a transcript of the event untill this point.
[2011/12/20 13:09] Cousin Hermit: Can Aeni Silvercloud hear me?
[2011/12/20 13:09] Ellie Edo: err – why is there a dance pole?
[2011/12/20 13:09] Khannea Suntzu: I’ll make the space smaller next week.
[2011/12/20 13:09] Khannea Suntzu: The dance pole is in case Rhiannon attends
[2011/12/20 13:10] Ellie Edo: is it a dance pole ?
[2011/12/20 13:10] Ellie Edo: ah
[2011/12/20 13:10] Khannea Suntzu: Heya moo!
[2011/12/20 13:10] Ellie Edo: naked AND dancing? (shudders)
[2011/12/20 13:10] Khannea Suntzu: Uhuh!
[2011/12/20 13:10] Ze Moo: aoy aoy
[2011/12/20 13:10] Khannea Suntzu: Today’s event is part of a number of presentations in Second Life with a specific purpose. The purpose is to brainstorm specifically to speculate about near space industrialization. I discussed this before, so for some of you this is round two, and hopefully a more disciplined approach. As such please make as many constructive comments as you can, and try to limit any superfluous talk. Please pause all text chat chatter untill I have made introductions. PLEASE TRY AND KEEP UP since I will be doing the introduction rather quickly. Also, I’d like to ask everyone to spam any newcomers with a transcript of the event untill this point.
[2011/12/20 13:10] Khannea Suntzu: Please feel free to tip my SL wife, Miss La Laser, for offering this land. She needs the Linden$.
[2011/12/20 13:11] Ellie Edo: (hides a smile)
[2011/12/20 13:11] Ellie Edo: (shuts up now)
[2011/12/20 13:12] Khannea Suntzu: Of course you are free to say whatever you like, but I will reprint the text of the entire sequence of RvB events and mine the ideas all attending raise for a later presentation in Amsterdam. This presentation will take place IRL in a few months in Amsterdam and I will use my primary to present the conclusions; as such that event will most likely be recorded in Youtube. These talks in SL will be linked to that event, and the plan of the team I am working with is to ‘interlink’ those Amsterdam events with SL (and potentially with Teleplaces).
[2011/12/20 13:12] Khannea Suntzu: Heya Rhi Rhi
[2011/12/20 13:12] Khannea Suntzu: The argument of my presentation is firmly in favor of space colonization and industrialization. I will piece apart a sequence of presentations with the purpose of focussing with precission on critical elements or “stepping stones” towards space industrialization. The first presentation in this series today will be about energy, and specifically the energy debacle the world is caught in today.
[2011/12/20 13:13] Rhiannon Dragoone: Thanks for the tp, Khani
[2011/12/20 13:13] Rhiannon Dragoone: Hi Oje, lufpleh, whoever’s on top of me
[2011/12/20 13:13] Khannea Suntzu: I have your pole warmed up Rhi, but don’t fall please
[2011/12/20 13:13] Rhiannon Dragoone: Jus point me to it, Khani
[2011/12/20 13:13] Khannea Suntzu points Rhiannon to the Dance Pole
[2011/12/20 13:13] Khannea Suntzu: I would direct you to my Scoop.It, which delineates a very large number of links about this specific topic. I ask you all to subscribe to this scoop (and if you like to any of my other five ones).
[2011/12/20 13:14] Khannea Suntzu:
[2011/12/20 13:15] Varahi Lusch smiles
[2011/12/20 13:15] Khannea Suntzu: Today’s topic is narrow and it is specifically based on the following sequence of arguments –
1. The future of industrial society is endangered by rapid decrease in natural resources, specifically harvestable energy in the form of fossil fuels.
2. Our geopolitical infrastructure, our environment, atmosphere and climate, is arguably to be negatively affected by our ravenous fossil-fuel based consumption.
3. Our political, governmental and corporate systems have become corrupted by the power of fossil fuel based industries, specifically oil. This gluttonous use of energy consumption is barely a century old on this planet and it has allowed humanity to grow in numbers and afluence far beyond what we had before 1850. Our reality has become by any standard “bizarre: and we are conducting an experiment with reality never seen before on this planet.
[2011/12/20 13:15] Rhiannon Dragoone: Hi Kim
[2011/12/20 13:16] Ellie Edo: O M G
[2011/12/20 13:16] Ellie Edo: I thought it was a JOKE
[2011/12/20 13:16] Rhiannon Dragoone: Hi Violet
[2011/12/20 13:16] Khannea Suntzu: 4. Worst of all we are unable to appreciate this, because we take our current world for granted.
5. Worst of all we are running out of the cheap petrochemical energy source and risk losing not just the accumulated wealth, but also the ability to feed billions of people.
[2011/12/20 13:16] Varahi Lusch nods
[2011/12/20 13:16] Ellie Edo: can we take turns?
[2011/12/20 13:16] Ataraxia Azemus: Hi Rhi
[2011/12/20 13:16] Rhiannon Dragoone: Hi Ellie
[2011/12/20 13:16] Khannea Suntzu: As some of you may know, Gerald K. O Neill wrote an excellent back in the early 1970s called The High Frontier. I recommend that you all read this book. There have been several excellent books written about solar system colonization since then and they all make the same argument – it is very expensive, but even MORE profitable.
[2011/12/20 13:17] Ellie Edo: wtf are you DOING, Rhi ?
[2011/12/20 13:17] Khannea Suntzu: The book itself is grandiose and far reaching, but the premise of the book has lost none of its significance; Gerald K O’Neil paints a perfectly valid business plan on how to settle permanent resources in near space (specifically in L4/L5, on the moon, on asteroids and in geostationary orbits). This is all quite technical and specific and the process of colonizing space would be arduously expensive as well as politically impossible – at least in the current short term oriented corporate and political paradigm.
[2011/12/20 13:17] Rhiannon Dragoone: What Khani wants me to do
[2011/12/20 13:17] Khannea Suntzu: Can everyone hear me?
[2011/12/20 13:17] Ellie Edo: do you have no shame ?
[2011/12/20 13:17] Ataraxia Azemus: Yup
[2011/12/20 13:17] Rhiannon Dragoone: No, can’t hear you, Khan
[2011/12/20 13:17] Khannea Suntzu: shit!
[2011/12/20 13:17] Ellie Edo: rofl
[2011/12/20 13:17] Khannea Suntzu: The first question – today’s question – is about whether or not several energy industries we could develop would scale. My argument is quite simple and you are free to discuss after my preliminary introduction (but do FOCUS! as much as possible on the topic).
[2011/12/20 13:18] Ellie Edo: he WANTS such a distraction ?
[2011/12/20 13:18] Varahi Lusch: shame is overrated
[2011/12/20 13:18] Khannea Suntzu: I will change the size of the auditorium next week, Moo
[2011/12/20 13:19] Kimiko Yiyuan: Oh! Hi there Rhi! Sorry, slow rezzing.
[2011/12/20 13:19] Cousin Hermit: Scaling is not really the issue, DOWNSIZING the “need” for energy is the issue.
[2011/12/20 13:19] Khannea Suntzu: Solar energy produced on earth is constrained by the machines and infrastructure required to produce (and store!) this energy. These are melted salt heat exchangers, photovoltaic cells, fresnel engines and that sort of thing. Indirectly the sun’s energy can be harvested from wind energy or biofuels. There are other means of harvesting ambient energy flows, such as geothermal, tidal, halocline differentials and many other besides. I of course advocate rational use of these sources of energy, and I do not advocate abandoning these possible options, in as much as as I advocate keeping an open mind regarding nuclear sources of energy, whether or not this involves Thorium or Uranium cycles.
[2011/12/20 13:19] Khannea Suntzu: All the above means to create energy on this Earth’s surface involve the use of building materials. These building materials are becoming rapidly more scarce, plus the sale of these materials have become politicised. Even worse we will be constantly competing with literally billions of consumers when we seek to purchase and reinvest the required energy sources. Consumers want their cars and mobile phones and big screen TV’s and might be recalcitrant (or plain oblivious) in accepting large (corporate or political) gestures that would drive up the price of their desired consumption goods.
[2011/12/20 13:20] Khannea Suntzu: But what is worse – largescale investment in these alteernative energy sources competes directly with the investment and revenues of established fossil fuel industries. Partcularly petrochemical industries, investors and owners of established oil fields would regard investment in, say, solar PV research and fields as an immediate competition to their rather significant incomes, and they may not care much about the long term value of these. And clearly the owners of oil industries and fields would care even less about permanent investments in space solar, which might significantly reduce the value of their established investments and assets.
[2011/12/20 13:20] Khannea Suntzu: You is all more or less keeping up?
[2011/12/20 13:20] Ataraxia Azemus: Yep
[2011/12/20 13:20] Khannea Suntzu: 1 – enough energy to repair for any real (or imagined?) environmental damage, any real (or imagined?) damage to the earth’s climate, and in particular make sure we stop destroying the Earth’s biosphere…
2 – enough energy to guarantee the current established economic prosperity (or even growth) of the developed nations…
3 – enough energy to guarantee to lift the world’s less off (poor, powerless) from destitution and create global afluence as quickly as we are humanly possible…
4 – as quickly as possible transition from a global infrastructure based on consuming and processing petrochemical products into another energy consumption – most likely to be electricity, possibly paired with hydrogen energy (rifkin)…
[2011/12/20 13:20] Khannea Suntzu: The human species needs the following;
[2011/12/20 13:21] Ellie Edo: keep going, yes
[2011/12/20 13:21] Khannea Suntzu: Let me emphasize point 3 for anyone who states we can downsize
[2011/12/20 13:21] Khannea Suntzu: We are now consuming about 20 terawatt/hour of energy as a planetary species. If we transition from combustibles (more than half of energy consumed! – we would need more just to transition away from oil (pour industries are based exclusively on oil), and we’d need more because oil is so energy dense, and alternatives are not – we’d probably lose most of our mobility, cars and such.
[2011/12/20 13:21] Rhiannon Dragoone: More or less, Khannea
[2011/12/20 13:21] Khannea Suntzu: If the price of PV’s will go up, in terms of price for required base materials – and even if the output of such energy harvest mechanisms will slowly go up – can we endlessly keep adding them on a planetary surface?
[2011/12/20 13:22] Khannea Suntzu: PV = Photovoltaics
[2011/12/20 13:22] Khannea Suntzu: In other words – we may need over 25 terawatt/hour per year of energy production to just keep our current (and utterly injust) standards of living intact. As we are rather witnessing a sharp and extremely alarming decline in the next decades in availability of cheap energy sources this is unthinkable in the global energy current projections. Even with the most optimistic projections in terms of energy conservation, oil production, alternative fuel research and investnent – yes even widespread nuclear energy use – we are looking at sharp shrinkage in the next few decades.
[2011/12/20 13:22] Rhiannon Dragoone: Hi Jo
[2011/12/20 13:22] Khannea Suntzu: I argue we can not invest enough in alternative energies to even come incrementally close to replacing fossil fuels falling away.
[2011/12/20 13:23] Khannea Suntzu: Arisia in case I crash can you save me a transcript of the event and email me?
[2011/12/20 13:23] Arisia Vita: sure
[2011/12/20 13:23] Khannea Suntzu: In essence I am argueing that the more we invest in planetary sources of energy, the more expensive these investments become. We’ll need far more and we’ll be able to invest less and less. This is nothing short of a catastrophe, and I invite all attending this presentation to disagree or agree with me. In other words:
[2011/12/20 13:24] Khannea Suntzu: Red: we face c an not research alternative sources energies enough, we cannot politically invest money in them fast enough and we don’t ahve the economic power left to properly invest in these infrastructures fats enough to even come close to replacing a signigicant percentage of oil falling away.
[2011/12/20 13:24] Ellie Edo: terawatthours please. terawatts/hour is meaningless
[2011/12/20 13:24] Khannea Suntzu: yesyes of course
[2011/12/20 13:24] Khannea Suntzu: I am precission dyslexic
[2011/12/20 13:24] Khannea Suntzu: Blue: we will be able to research alternative sources of energy, our technologies are advancing so far we won’t just be able to harvest solar energy so efficiently that in just a decade, maybe by 2030, we will have robust energy, industrial and economic growth far exceeding anything we have known so far, and we’ll be using our available oil reserves in far wiser ways than we do now.
[2011/12/20 13:25] Khannea Suntzu: Blue: We can easily create new sources of energy, (even without surrendering to nuclear ha ha) in time to offset oil falling away. Or even better, oil will be soon pushed aside by alternative energy sources.
[2011/12/20 13:25] Khannea Suntzu: Red: Our energy outlooks are nothing short of catastrophic and we need solutions,
[2011/12/20 13:25] Khannea Suntzu: Let’s discuss. Who has the balls to take either the RED or the BLUE chair?
[2011/12/20 13:25] Rhiannon Dragoone: Hi cousin
[2011/12/20 13:26] Rhiannon Dragoone: well, I’m not sure where this lies, but I will say I think the Earth is abundant
[2011/12/20 13:26] Rhiannon Dragoone: We just need the imagination to utilize it
[2011/12/20 13:26] Cousin Hermit: I don’t “sit” very well…
[2011/12/20 13:26] Rhiannon Dragoone: I think we can make computer chips from sand, power from the sun, and we can find substitutes for anything–as long as we have the freedom to think and act on our thoughts
[2011/12/20 13:27] Cousin Hermit: But I think that we definitely need “solutions” beyond “expandability”
[2011/12/20 13:27] Ataraxia Azemus: Yay, we’re smushed into range
[2011/12/20 13:27] Rhiannon Dragoone: Yeah, cousin
[2011/12/20 13:27] Rhiannon Dragoone: Hi Shirley
[2011/12/20 13:27] Shirley Marquez: hello!
[2011/12/20 13:27] Ataraxia Azemus: Hello Shirley
[2011/12/20 13:28] Cousin Hermit: Scaling is not really the issue, DOWNSIZING the “need” for energy is the issue.
[2011/12/20 13:28] Cousin Hermit: Scaling in reverse?
[2011/12/20 13:28] Rhiannon Dragoone: Cousin, there are always two solutions to the problem of wealth–which is what this is
[2011/12/20 13:28] Rhiannon Dragoone: Scale down need or expand to meet it
[2011/12/20 13:28] Rhiannon Dragoone: We have demonstrated expansiveness; the self control for downsiing is another issue
[2011/12/20 13:28] Cousin Hermit: Expanding depletes resources.
[2011/12/20 13:29] Ivy Sunkiller: a floor would be an asset 🙂
[2011/12/20 13:29] Cousin Hermit: which depletes the “ability” to expand.
[2011/12/20 13:29] Rhiannon Dragoone: It’s almost Malthusian–we will either practice self control, of perish. Well, I think expanding creates it’s own assets
[2011/12/20 13:29] Ivy Sunkiller: wb 🙂
[2011/12/20 13:29] Rhiannon Dragoone: Hi Kim
[2011/12/20 13:29] Ataraxia Azemus: I’m afraid we may hit a point where we don’t have the choice; if we haven’t already
[2011/12/20 13:29] Varahi Lusch: I think we in general have a culture of being too selfish and this is what will increase our insane need for power.. we will never find enough to satisfy the red chair
[2011/12/20 13:29] Varahi Lusch: sorry the blue chair
[2011/12/20 13:29] Varahi Lusch: ^^
[2011/12/20 13:29] Cousin Hermit: The red chair does not NEED as much as the blue chair!
[2011/12/20 13:30] Aquiel Aero: Hi Rhi
[2011/12/20 13:30] Rhiannon Dragoone: Hi Aquiel
[2011/12/20 13:30] Rhiannon Dragoone: I’m not sure where I am–except I’m obviously in the middle of things here. lol
[2011/12/20 13:30] Aquiel Aero: A friend sent me this landmark
[2011/12/20 13:30] Varahi Lusch: hehe yeah i was also precision dislexic there hmm
[2011/12/20 13:30] Varahi Lusch: ^^
[2011/12/20 13:30] Cousin Hermit: heh-heh, Khannea is “reducing” the distance between participants as we type… 🙂
[2011/12/20 13:31] Rhiannon Dragoone: Yeah, I can finally see everyone and “hear” them
[2011/12/20 13:31] Rhiannon Dragoone: But I see no refutation of my notion that we siimply need imagination to find the resources that are about us. The earth is bountiful.
[2011/12/20 13:31] Ataraxia Azemus: I was going to suggest we all shout…..that would’ve been fun, for a debate format….
[2011/12/20 13:31] Khannea Suntzu: What is also important you are at the center!
[2011/12/20 13:32] Khannea Suntzu: Not necessary we aren’t republicans, violet
[2011/12/20 13:32] Cousin Hermit: Is anyone else willing to “take a side”?
[2011/12/20 13:32] Ataraxia Azemus: I think the earth is pretty finite, in terms of both resources and space; but (outer) space I’m….not sure about
[2011/12/20 13:32] Khannea Suntzu: You are, most certainly!
[2011/12/20 13:32] Rhiannon Dragoone puts up her dukes just in case
[2011/12/20 13:33] Cousin Hermit: We don’t “need” outerspace or other planets to survive.
[2011/12/20 13:33] Shirley Marquez: this is my first time at one of these so I don’t yet know what it means to take a side…
[2011/12/20 13:33] Varahi Lusch smiles at Ze Moo
[2011/12/20 13:33] Shirley Marquez: for now I plan to listen and learn
[2011/12/20 13:33] Khannea Suntzu: The topic isn’t even about the outer space just yet
[2011/12/20 13:33] Cousin Hermit: We only need to restrict people who are greedy for “profit” reasons.
[2011/12/20 13:33] Rhiannon Dragoone: Shirley, you really don’t have to; but Khan has presented two veryh different positions and wants us to discuss them.
[2011/12/20 13:33] Ze Moo: .)
[2011/12/20 13:34] Rhiannon Dragoone: Yes, let’s restrict the profits and expand the political power. That’ll work; it being the reason for sccarcity in the first place.
[2011/12/20 13:34] Khannea Suntzu: The FOCUS! is simpler – will we constrain ourselves as we compete for natural resources… will alternative sources of energy do the trick… and worse, can we save the third world, many of which is still in popylation boom, andgive those people a humane and dignified standard of life.
[2011/12/20 13:34] Khannea Suntzu: I feare we can’t
[2011/12/20 13:34] Ataraxia Azemus: I don’t think our model of indefinite expansion is really sustainable…and I’m kind of hopefully pessimistic about our current and future predicament
[2011/12/20 13:35] Cousin Hermit: The U.S. is fast becomming like Stalin’s Russia.
[2011/12/20 13:35] Cousin Hermit: Communist
[2011/12/20 13:35] Ataraxia Azemus: That is…I hope for a soft landing :\
[2011/12/20 13:35] Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, it’s more a social fascism, if you ask me.
[2011/12/20 13:35] Cousin Hermit: We know how that ended up!
[2011/12/20 13:35] Rhiannon Dragoone: Violet, I do too; as long as it’s in the asteroid belt.
[2011/12/20 13:35] Rhiannon Dragoone: lol
[2011/12/20 13:35] Cousin Hermit: Social Fascism = Communism
[2011/12/20 13:35] Khannea Suntzu: There is certainly a political component to this… maybe even ‘elites’ consolidating their plush positions? But the world is bigger than the US.
[2011/12/20 13:36] Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, cousin, there’s a difference–fascists control people; communists control property.
[2011/12/20 13:36] Cousin Hermit: ah
[2011/12/20 13:36] Cousin Hermit: seems very similar to me
[2011/12/20 13:36] Shirley Marquez: in practice there is less difference because controlling societies usually do both
[2011/12/20 13:37] Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, in any case, whether it’s social fascism or whatever, it restricts the mind, hence, the imagination needed to utilize the resources
[2011/12/20 13:37] Rhiannon Dragoone: So this is really a political problem
[2011/12/20 13:37] Cousin Hermit: If you try to take care of too many ignorant people then the system tends to break down.
[2011/12/20 13:38] Cousin Hermit: Intelligent people can take care of “themselves”.
[2011/12/20 13:38] Khannea Suntzu: Rhiannon, can we seriously enforce, through political tools, anything even approximating a solution to the massive amounts of energy we need?
[2011/12/20 13:38] Rhiannon Dragoone: Oh, we can’t, Khan, that’s why our only hope is the free market–an unregulated solution that max’s everyone’s potential for a solution.
[2011/12/20 13:38] Cousin Hermit: Truly intelligent people don’t need to WASTE resources in order to SAVE ignorant people.
[2011/12/20 13:39] Rhiannon Dragoone: Billions of individual solution rather than one great big one.
[2011/12/20 13:39] Ellie Edo: I have a source reference to hat I consider a superb and little known free book which is relevant
[2011/12/20 13:39] lufpleh Obstreperous: think red is the morally correct idealistic position, blue is unfortunatley the world we live in, it will take a massive crisis far greater then this little economic downturn, talking world war 1 or II scale to make the necesssary cultural move from blue to red
[2011/12/20 13:39] Khannea Suntzu: Vulnerable people become desperate, and may turn to crime, revolutions, sabotage.
[2011/12/20 13:39] Rhiannon Dragoone: Awesome, Ellie, can you put the link in chat
[2011/12/20 13:39] Ellie Edo: most intelligent positions, it is neither blue nor red
[2011/12/20 13:39] Ellie Edo: first a quote
[2011/12/20 13:39] Khannea Suntzu: That’s why it is a debate.
[2011/12/20 13:39] Ellie Edo: “First, we electrify transport. Electrification both gets transport off fossil fuels, and makes transport more energy-efficient. (Of course, electrification
current consumption
Figure 19.3. Current consumption in “cartoon-Britain 2008.”
losses in conversion to electricity
Electrical things: 18 kWh/d
40 kWh/d
40 kWh/d
125 kWh/d
Copyright David JC MacKay 2009. This electronic copy is provided, free, for personal use only. See
19 — Every BIG helps 117
increases our demand for green electricity.) Second, to supplement solar-thermal heating, we electrify most heating
of air and water in buildings using heat pumps, which are four times more efficient than ordinary electrical heaters. This electrification of heating further increases the amount of green electricity required.
Third, we get all the green electricity from a mix of four sources: from our own renewables; perhaps from “clean coal;” perhaps from nuclear; and finally, and with great polite
[2011/12/20 13:39] Ellie Edo: ness, from other countries’ renewables.
Among other countries’ renewables, solar power in deserts is the most plentiful option. As long as we can build peaceful international collabo- rations, solar power in other people’s deserts certainly has the technical potential to provide us, them, and everyone with 125kWh per day per person.”
[2011/12/20 13:40] Ellie Edo: dammit sorry
[2011/12/20 13:40] Ellie Edo: comes of copying from pdfs
[2011/12/20 13:40] Ellie Edo: ok the link
[2011/12/20 13:40] Ataraxia Azemus: No worries
[2011/12/20 13:41] Khannea Suntzu: Can we give a few hundred million desperately poor people in western africa, upper India, south america and far asia a standard of living even approximating dignified by…. ‘saving some energy consumption’ ?
[2011/12/20 13:41] Rhiannon Dragoone: Hi Gilles!
[2011/12/20 13:41] Ellie Edo: dammit – technical probs. deepest apologies
[2011/12/20 13:41] Ataraxia Azemus: Hi Gilles
[2011/12/20 13:41] Ellie Edo: in a few minutes
[2011/12/20 13:41] Cousin Hermit: Khannea, you can’t “give” people anything and have it be “sustainable.”
[2011/12/20 13:41] Rhiannon Dragoone: Ellie, put it in a notecard and send it that way.
[2011/12/20 13:41] Rhiannon Dragoone: I find it helps
[2011/12/20 13:42] Khannea Suntzu: Provide for… facilitate… subsidize… help… invent…….semantics.
[2011/12/20 13:42] Khannea Suntzu: invest
[2011/12/20 13:42] Ellie Edo: this is the most significant quote: “solar power in deserts is the most plentiful option. As long as we can build peaceful international collabo- rations, solar power in other people’s deserts certainly has the technical potential to provide us, them, and everyone with 125kWh per day per person.””
[2011/12/20 13:42] Cousin Hermit: won’t work
[2011/12/20 13:42] Rhiannon Dragoone: Ellie, that’s awesome; but it is a political obstacle.
[2011/12/20 13:43] Cousin Hermit: Yes Ellie, there is ALREADY enough energy available for all needs.
[2011/12/20 13:43] Rhiannon Dragoone: It’s kind of my point–I think the earth is abundant, but there’s all this government claptrap there
[2011/12/20 13:43] Khannea Suntzu: Ellie how much infrastructure does a gigawatt of solar cost… aluminium, glass, steel, copper, conductors?
[2011/12/20 13:43] Khannea Suntzu: How much does it cost to transport in a DC grid?
[2011/12/20 13:43] Rhiannon Dragoone: I do it with the glass on my car.
[2011/12/20 13:43] Cousin Hermit: The desire for “profit” is the problem because profit REDUCES effective output.
[2011/12/20 13:43] Rhiannon Dragoone: Cousin, I disagree; profit motivates the most effective output
[2011/12/20 13:44] Khannea Suntzu:
[2011/12/20 13:44] Ellie Edo: ok
[2011/12/20 13:44] Gilles Kuhn: there is a project from a german firm that want to use the sahara to provide maghreb and europe with massive elctricity from solar
[2011/12/20 13:44] Ellie Edo: HERE IS MY LIK:
[2011/12/20 13:44] Varahi Lusch: we could be Red IF we werent sharing the ‘bountiful earth’ with selfish beings.. thats why I think we should change our imagination potential by changing our culture. This will lead, in part, to us setting an example of living within our own means and then from that point be able to really share with those less fortunate. Rather than ‘helping’ them to become more like us i.e. Greedy and Luxuriating in Consumer goods and energy overload
[2011/12/20 13:44] Ellie Edo: LINK
[2011/12/20 13:44] Cousin Hermit: Profit causes DECREASE in natural resources rather than taking advantage of the FREE resources!
[2011/12/20 13:45] Cousin Hermit: Profit = Destruction
[2011/12/20 13:45] Rhiannon Dragoone: Thanks, Ellie
[2011/12/20 13:45] Cousin Hermit: “God” (nature) provides freely.
[2011/12/20 13:46] Ellie Edo: it has an iteresting modus oprerandi – ignore all financial constraint, determine what is possible with unlimited financial and plolitical motivation. gives an upper limit on what is POSSIBLE
[2011/12/20 13:46] Khannea Suntzu: And every bigscreen TV is ten solar panels less.
[2011/12/20 13:46] Gilles Kuhn: rhi, cousin you are speaking of orthogonals concept profit is something in the mark of an economic system when production or explooitation of a natural ressource can be done in all kind of economic systems
[2011/12/20 13:46] MandySt Resident: Have a nice rest of the evening people, I have to go x
[2011/12/20 13:46] Khannea Suntzu: bye bye *GRIN* sis
[2011/12/20 13:46] Varahi Lusch: tc mandy
[2011/12/20 13:46] Ellie Edo: focuses on the UK, but widens out to the world situation
[2011/12/20 13:46] Rhiannon Dragoone: bye, Mandy
[2011/12/20 13:47] Rhiannon Dragoone: UK is often a good test case.
[2011/12/20 13:48] Varahi Lusch: what if we dont wanna be tested on?
[2011/12/20 13:48] Ellie Edo: Solar in deserts seems to be it, with huge power transfer systems to developed countries {german are already working on exactly this from the Libyan deserts. hence the political enthusiasm for Libyan intervention amongst the Europeans. The only tyhing that can save them medium term. Libya
[2011/12/20 13:48] Varahi Lusch giggles.
[2011/12/20 13:48] Ataraxia Azemus: Hi Peimike and Bela
[2011/12/20 13:48] Shirley Marquez: here in the US it’s politically a bit simpler perhaps, we have enough deserts within our borders
[2011/12/20 13:48] Rhiannon Dragoone: Hi Peimike. You made it!
[2011/12/20 13:49] Rhiannon Dragoone: Hi Chraeloos
[2011/12/20 13:49] Peimike Priestman: hi folks. Rhi looked impaled for a second.
[2011/12/20 13:49] Chraeloos Resident: Hey Rhia 🙂
[2011/12/20 13:49] Rhiannon Dragoone: Shirly, but perhaps even more politics on how to use them.
[2011/12/20 13:49] Khannea Suntzu: hehehehehe
[2011/12/20 13:49] Peimike Priestman: any chair?
[2011/12/20 13:49] Belabeltz Resident: Hi everybody 🙂
[2011/12/20 13:49] Rhiannon Dragoone: If one endangered snake gets zapped by solar energy, well, there it goes–right down the crapper
[2011/12/20 13:49] Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Bela
[2011/12/20 13:49] Shirley Marquez: I once heard somebody talking about that on NPR; the estimate was that it would take covering either 100 square miles or 100 miles square of Texas to produce enough power for the entire US
[2011/12/20 13:49] Ataraxia Azemus: Where I live is increasingly wind farmed….I’d be really curious to know how much energy is being produced, and how far its usage goes
[2011/12/20 13:50] Shirley Marquez: but even the larger number is a small part of the total landmass of the country and it wouldn’t be hard to find that much land that is currently unused or minimally used
[2011/12/20 13:50] Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, we can always have satellites covert solar energy to microwavess and beam it down.
[2011/12/20 13:51] Rhiannon Dragoone: No desert need apply
[2011/12/20 13:51] Khannea Suntzu: I must confess I am very suspicious of wind. I don’t think in the long run it will compete in :materials versus megawatts; squared with solar
[2011/12/20 13:51] Ellie Edo: In the bigger picture, terrafoeming etc, we ahve a problem that we need multi-century investment projects, and no political system that could possibly deliver them. A totally different politics would be a prerequisite for any prijectwith a payback more trhan, say 80 years in the future
[2011/12/20 13:51] Khannea Suntzu: Rhiannon, I hope we can but that are the topics for the next weeks
[2011/12/20 13:51] Rhiannon Dragoone: Khannea, maybe not wind–but what of all the hot air Washington produces, esp. at election time? We can utilize it
[2011/12/20 13:51] Khannea Suntzu: Methane yah
[2011/12/20 13:51] Ataraxia Azemus: Yes, Ellie
[2011/12/20 13:51] Shirley Marquez: Khannea, I think some combination of wind and solar will win; neither produces power all the time, and wind is at its best at times when solar is at its worst
[2011/12/20 13:51] Khannea Suntzu: Methane Bromides even
[2011/12/20 13:52] Peimike Priestman: there’s also plenty of methane conversion potential from the bullshit.
[2011/12/20 13:52] Shirley Marquez: by using both you can reduce the energy storage problem
[2011/12/20 13:52] Rhiannon Dragoone: True, Khannea, this topic is like an elephant–have to digest it one bite at a time
[2011/12/20 13:52] Khannea Suntzu: om nom nom
[2011/12/20 13:52] Rhiannon Dragoone laughs at Khannea
[2011/12/20 13:53] Peimike Priestman: perhaps also like the blind men trying to describe the elephant.
[2011/12/20 13:53] Rhiannon Dragoone: yes, good point, Peimike
[2011/12/20 13:53] Khannea Suntzu: Most certainly Peimike
[2011/12/20 13:53] Rhiannon Dragoone: The solutions might take a form or shape we can’t even imagine
[2011/12/20 13:53] Peimike Priestman: there are parts of technologies in place, but none that encompass the whole animal.
[2011/12/20 13:53] Rhiannon Dragoone: Another reason for freedom.
[2011/12/20 13:54] Khannea Suntzu: Try and convince the average voter of this entire “problem”.
[2011/12/20 13:54] Khannea Suntzu: “I want my nacho hat dammit, you hippies!
[2011/12/20 13:54] Ellie Edo: near term we need an all electric civilisation. Which presents huge storage problems even to handle daily demand fluctuations
[2011/12/20 13:54] Peimike Priestman: there needs to be a period of creative anarchy for the best ideas to rise to the occasion.
[2011/12/20 13:54] Shirley Marquez: another part of solving the storage problem is demand management…
[2011/12/20 13:55] Shirley Marquez: so you might not be able to do your laundry exactly when you want to, etc.
[2011/12/20 13:55] Rhiannon Dragoone: Peimike, exactly. Well put. “Creative anarchy”=free markets
[2011/12/20 13:55] Khannea Suntzu: I recommend the book “hot flat and crowded”, which actually has some amazing suggestions and ideas on this.
[2011/12/20 13:55] Ellie Edo: the book I linked calculates the only real poossibility is using the worlds connected-up electric cars as themselves the storage medium for the grid, ie they dont all go out every day, but feed back into the grid while parked as needed
[2011/12/20 13:55] Khannea Suntzu: I was much impressed
[2011/12/20 13:55] Laborious Aftermath:
[2011/12/20 13:56] Peimike Priestman: i don’t think there are enough electric cars, are there?
[2011/12/20 13:56] Shirley Marquez: right now, no
[2011/12/20 13:57] Cousin Hermit: “Batteries” are toxic to the environment.
[2011/12/20 13:57] Peimike Priestman: the other thing is, the battery technology may be the achilles heel and not the asset.
[2011/12/20 13:57] Peimike Priestman: hydrogen is the most likely winner for vehicles.
[2011/12/20 13:57] Shirley Marquez: it’s true that batteries are made of toxic materials… and shortages of lithium could be an issue
[2011/12/20 13:57] Ellie Edo: not yet, of course, Peim. this is a plan for the future, when all vehicles must be electric
[2011/12/20 13:57] Peimike Priestman: batteries are unstable outside a narrow temperature range as well.
[2011/12/20 13:58] Ze Moo: people should simply use less cars, less planes, basically travel less. And work & pleasure online more!
[2011/12/20 13:58] Peimike Priestman: why must they be electric?
[2011/12/20 13:58] Peimike Priestman: shouldn’t the “must” be zero toxic emission?
[2011/12/20 13:58] Peimike Priestman: hydrogen produces H2O at the tailpipe.
[2011/12/20 13:58] Rhiannon Dragoone: Electric is just one example
[2011/12/20 13:58] Peimike Priestman: electric has a toxic footprint.
[2011/12/20 13:59] Ataraxia Azemus: I like travel….but in the US, at least, we really have almost no urban planning; it would reduce energy consumption if we didn’t build things so spaced apart
[2011/12/20 13:59] Rhiannon Dragoone: Yeah, I’ve driven a car that ran on natural gas. 100 miles to the gallon; drove all over LA without having to refuel
[2011/12/20 13:59] Rhiannon Dragoone: But got nervous everytime someone lit a cigarette next to it
[2011/12/20 13:59] Ze Moo: bicycle more!
[2011/12/20 13:59] Shirley Marquez: I regularly ride in buses that are powered by natural gas
[2011/12/20 13:59] Khannea Suntzu: Violet, the end result will be arcologies and very dense cities, I am sure.
[2011/12/20 13:59] Gilles Kuhn: so good an interesting way to quit smoking…
[2011/12/20 13:59] Rhiannon Dragoone: Arcologies?
[2011/12/20 13:59] Ellie Edo: To recap our requirements: we’d like to be able to store or do without about 1200GWh, which is 20kWh per person; and to cope with swings in supply of up to 33 GW – that’s 0.5 kW per person. These numbers are delightfully similar in size to the energy and power requirements of electric cars. The electric cars we saw in Chapter 20 had energy stores of between 9 kWh and 53 kWh. A national fleet of 30 million electric cars would store an energy similar to 20 kWh per person! Typical battery chargers draw a power of 2 or 3kW. So simultaneously switching on 30 million battery chargers would create a change in demand of about 60 GW! The average power required to power all the nation’s transport, if it were all electric, is roughly 40 or 50 GW.
[2011/12/20 13:59] Ataraxia Azemus: I’m okay with arcologies 🙂
[2011/12/20 14:00] Shirley Marquez: but natural gas isn’t sustainable in the long term, it’s another fossil fuel and thus finite
[2011/12/20 14:00] Khannea Suntzu:
[2011/12/20 14:00] Peimike Priestman: hydrogen; not natural gas.
[2011/12/20 14:00] Rhiannon Dragoone: Shirley, well, true, but Titan is one sea of natural gas–it should last us for centuries–always assuming we go to it
[2011/12/20 14:00] Gilles Kuhn: i’m ok with arcologies too if i have not to live inside them….
[2011/12/20 14:00] Rhiannon Dragoone: What is an arcology?
[2011/12/20 14:01] Shirley Marquez: An arcology is a completely closed artificial ecosystem
[2011/12/20 14:01] Gilles Kuhn: we know now that rhi didnt played simcity when a teen 😉
[2011/12/20 14:01] Rhiannon Dragoone: oh, ok, like that one they did in California for a while?
[2011/12/20 14:01] Shirley Marquez: in theory anyway; in practice it would need some external inputs
[2011/12/20 14:01] Ataraxia Azemus: haha Gilles :p
[2011/12/20 14:02] Peimike Priestman: profound apologies folks. rl is being selfish.
[2011/12/20 14:02] Ataraxia Azemus: Not Biodome so much as autonomous urban communities….
[2011/12/20 14:02] Ataraxia Azemus: Take care, Peimike
[2011/12/20 14:02] Kimiko Yiyuan: Like the tourist hotels in the Dominican Republic and elsewhere, only bigger. haha
[2011/12/20 14:02] Rhiannon Dragoone: TCc, Peimike
[2011/12/20 14:03] Varahi Lusch: we have transition towns near me
[2011/12/20 14:03] Ataraxia Azemus: Transition towns?
[2011/12/20 14:03] Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, once there is a global city, it will have to be an archology
[2011/12/20 14:03] Varahi Lusch: let me find a link
[2011/12/20 14:03] Shirley Marquez: it shocks many people to learn that one of the most environmentally friendly places to live in the US is Manhattan…
[2011/12/20 14:03] Varahi Lusch: it is about sharing and celebrating community to strengthen the resources a town has
[2011/12/20 14:03] Varahi Lusch: to move towards more sustainability
[2011/12/20 14:03] Shirley Marquez: basically because of density — people live in smaller places than the average US resident, they don’t drive, etc
[2011/12/20 14:03] Ataraxia Azemus: NYC is a model I wish more of the US followed, architecturally….but for the most part, there’s no need
[2011/12/20 14:04] Gilles Kuhn: yes manhatan only place where you can recycle traders….. (yes its a bad one cannt resist)
[2011/12/20 14:04] Ataraxia Azemus: Sounds good, Varahi 🙂
[2011/12/20 14:04] Varahi Lusch: it does seem to be reaching people from all sectors of the community
[2011/12/20 14:04] Varahi Lusch:
[2011/12/20 14:04] Varahi Lusch smiles
[2011/12/20 14:04] Ataraxia Azemus: Thanks 🙂
[2011/12/20 14:05] Rhiannon Dragoone: Shirley, are you trying to make me fall off this pole?
[2011/12/20 14:05] Khannea Suntzu: 🙂
[2011/12/20 14:05] Rhiannon Dragoone: I’m just glad she didn’t say that when I was on the top of it
[2011/12/20 14:05] Shirley Marquez: no, Rhi… I was talking about energy efficiency, not about other problems with Manhattan
[2011/12/20 14:05] Rhiannon Dragoone: Manhattan is environmentally sound.
[2011/12/20 14:06] Shirley Marquez: it’s one of the few places in the US where the lifestyle isn’t car-dependent
[2011/12/20 14:07] Laborious Aftermath:
[2011/12/20 14:07] Rhiannon Dragoone: That is one of it’s advantages; I hate being dependent on my car.
[2011/12/20 14:08] Khannea Suntzu: I remind everyone here that in roughly an hour the event of Extropia DaSilva at thinkers starts. If you like a Landmark for that discussion even do IM me.
[2011/12/20 14:08] Ivy Sunkiller needs coffee #_#
[2011/12/20 14:08] Rhiannon Dragoone: It’s usually an wesome discussion; please come, ppl
[2011/12/20 14:08] Ataraxia Azemus: Mmmm, caffeine
[2011/12/20 14:08] Rhiannon Dragoone: It’s at 3:30 slt
[2011/12/20 14:08] Ivy Sunkiller: which is 0:30am here
[2011/12/20 14:08] Khannea Suntzu: starts way earlier usually
[2011/12/20 14:08] Rhiannon Dragoone: 23:30 GMT
[2011/12/20 14:09] Rhiannon Dragoone: yeah, she has the afterglow as a pre-glow.
[2011/12/20 14:09] Ivy Sunkiller: in soviet CET we add one hour
[2011/12/20 14:09] Ataraxia Azemus: haha
[2011/12/20 14:09] Rhiannon Dragoone: You’re in Russia, Ivy? Not Gor? ::eyes Toy:::
[2011/12/20 14:09] Ivy Sunkiller: have you seen pink heels in gor?
[2011/12/20 14:09] Rhiannon Dragoone: I hate to even think about matching time zones with Counter-Earth
[2011/12/20 14:10] Khannea Suntzu: Anyone ore predispoded after the discussion so far, to express a more solid vote fore either RED or BLUE?
[2011/12/20 14:10] Rhiannon Dragoone: Australia’s bad enough
[2011/12/20 14:10] Rhiannon Dragoone: You got me there, Ivy. I got “killed” for riding a horse in Gor
[2011/12/20 14:10] Rhiannon Dragoone: They apologized, but made me get rid of the horse
[2011/12/20 14:10] Ivy Sunkiller: that’s where the bush came from?
[2011/12/20 14:10] Khannea Suntzu: That wasn’t a horse, it was a centaur.
[2011/12/20 14:10] Ivy Sunkiller: all that glued fur
[2011/12/20 14:10] Khannea Suntzu: And that strictlyu speaking wasn’t “riding”.
[2011/12/20 14:11] Rhiannon Dragoone: Ivy! That’s none of your business. lol

[2011/12/20 14:12] Ivy Sunkiller: I’ll take it for a “yes”
[2011/12/20 14:12] Ivy Sunkiller goes to make coffee
[2011/12/20 14:12] Rhiannon Dragoone siips her coffee and mutters
[2011/12/20 14:12] Shirley Marquez: sorry, was AFK for a bit… one more point on Manhattan and sustainable is that the argument really only holds for people who LIVE there — living 50 miles away and commuting in, as many do, is just as stupid there as anywhere!
[2011/12/20 14:12] Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, I think I’ll be off; want to do something before Extie’s.
[2011/12/20 14:12] Ataraxia Azemus: I’m gonna take a break before Extie’s thing
[2011/12/20 14:12] Ataraxia Azemus: Later, gators 🙂
[2011/12/20 14:13] Rhiannon Dragoone: After a while, crocodile
[2011/12/20 14:13] Shirley Marquez: bye, Rhi and Violet
[2011/12/20 14:13] Rhiannon Dragoone: SEe you all at Extie’s!
[2011/12/20 14:13] Rhiannon Dragoone: Thanks Khan, for hosting this. Glad you’ve brought it back
[2011/12/20 14:13] Khannea Suntzu: 🙂
[2011/12/20 14:13] Khannea Suntzu: Your welcome dear 🙂
[2011/12/20 14:13] Shirley Marquez: not me, sadly, RL wants me back soon
[2011/12/20 14:13] Khannea Suntzu: Keep an eye on next week’s event, which will be 30 minutes later
[2011/12/20 14:13] Cousin Hermit: Does Ivy ever talk?
[2011/12/20 14:14] Varahi Lusch: thank you all :))
[2011/12/20 14:14] Ze Moo: thanks
[2011/12/20 14:14] Laborious Aftermath: Tc all and see some of you in a few. 🙂
[2011/12/20 14:14] Khannea Suntzu: Also do feel welcome to top my SL wife, Laserhop Rothschild, who hosts this land
[2011/12/20 14:14] Cousin Hermit: where?
[2011/12/20 14:14] Varahi Lusch: top?
[2011/12/20 14:14] Varahi Lusch giggles.
[2011/12/20 14:14] Khannea Suntzu: and do join my scoop it on this topic,
[2011/12/20 14:14] Khannea Suntzu:
[2011/12/20 14:15] Cousin Hermit: hey, we never got into the “space” part of the dialogue!
[2011/12/20 14:15] Khannea Suntzu: No no neither me nor my SL wife is strictly a top. Its more mutually voracious.
[2011/12/20 14:15] Varahi Lusch: how wonderful
[2011/12/20 14:15] Varahi Lusch: 😀
[2011/12/20 14:15] Varahi Lusch curtsies
[2011/12/20 14:15] Khannea Suntzu: Next week, Cousin, don’t choke on the elephant.
[2011/12/20 14:15] Shirley Marquez: bye — as I said, RL wants me back
[2011/12/20 14:15] Shirley Marquez: and that sounds like a happy arrangement, Khannea
[2011/12/20 14:17] mez Oyen: thank you all. I’ll be back 🙂
[2011/12/20 14:17] Gilles Kuhn: gtg bye all
[2011/12/20 14:18] Chraeloos Resident: thanks for the discussion everyone!
[2011/12/20 14:20] Ivy Sunkiller sips coffee
[2011/12/20 14:20] Ivy Sunkiller: brrrain fuel
[2011/12/20 14:20] Khannea Suntzu sorts through the residual depris of the event
[2011/12/20 14:20] Khannea Suntzu: debris
[2011/12/20 14:21] Arisia Vita: short break for me, back soon for Thinkers….
[2011/12/20 14:21] Arisia Vita: it was great seeing you all